Moving to the outfield, in part 6 we’ll be discussing a position with quite the dichotomy of candidates. That is, one inhabited by several players–two of whom are discussed here–with black marks hanging over their careers, but also includes two of the most highly respected and revered Hall of Famers in the history of the game. That position is Left Field.
Let me make one clarification, though, before we continue. In the “black mark” category, I am not referring to Pete Rose. We’ve decided to go with the idea of adding a utility category for players whose careers don’t easily allow them to fit into a particular position. Rose will be considered as part of that category.
And now, on to the candidates.
Chas’ Picks
Barry Bonds
When I nominated Alex Rodriguez for the Mount Otsego of shortstops, his name wasn’t even mentioned in the passionate debate that ensued. I don’t think we’re going to be able to ignore Barry Bonds as easily, though. Considering his career at face value, there is no way we could justify not bestowing this honor on the all-time home run king. In addition to topping the career list for round-trippers, he is the all-time leader in walks and intentional walks, and is 6th in OBP and slugging percentage, 5th in adjusted OPS, 4th in RBI and total bases, and 3rd in runs. Add to that 514 SB, 8 Gold Gloves, 13 Silver Sluggers, 14 All-Star selections and seven MVPs, and there is no way we can deny him his place on the mountain. Or can we?
Ed Delahanty
“Big Ed” was one of the greatest hitters of the 19th century. He played for 16 seasons from 1888 to 1903 and compiled a career batting average of .346, producing 1599 runs scored and 1464 RBI in just 1835 games. He led the league in slugging percentage and doubles five times, home runs twice, RBI three times, and extra base hits four times. His tragic death in 1903 at the age of 35–he was swept over Niagara Falls in what was believed to have been a drunken accident–is also the subject matter of a song that appears on the best baseball album ever, 2008’s Frozen Ropes and Dying Quails, by indie rocker Steve Wynn and R.E.M. sidekick Scott McCaughey, otherwise known as The Baseball Project. [Link is to a youtube video of the band performing on Letterman]
Rickey Henderson
Of all of the major career marks, Rickey’s 1406 stolen bases just may be the most impressive of all, especially considering it’s approximately 50% more than the second name on the list. But, Henderson wasn’t just the “Man of Steal”, he was the greatest leadoff hitter in the game’s history, holding the all-time mark for runs (2295) and ranking second to Bonds in walks (2190). 297 HR, a .401 OBP, 10 All-Star selections, an MVP and a Gold Glove, and it all adds up to an icon whose likeness wouldn’t look out of place on top of Mount Otsego.
Stan Musial
“Stan the Man” was Ted Williams’ counterpart in the National League, and every bit the Splendid Splinter’s equal. But, when discussing the greatest hitters of all-time, how often do we hear arguments for Musial’s name to top the list? Whether that is an injustice to him or not–considering his .331 lifetime batting average, 3630 hits, 475 HR, 1949 runs, 1951 RBI, seven batting titles, 20 All-Star selections, and three MVPs (plus four second place finishes)–it seems unlikely that anyone could not rate the oldest living Hall of Famer as one of the four greatest left fielders in history.
Tim Raines
Tim “Rock” Raines is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than several left fielders who are already in the Hall, including Jim Rice and Lou Brock. But, I’m not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you of that here. You can read this if you want to learn more about how I feel about Raines’ Hall of Fame snub. However, if you want to discuss the relative merits of Raines vs. Brock, or dispute the fact that Brock is the worst first-ballot Hall of Famer and, quite possibly, the most over-rated player in baseball history, bring it on.
Al Simmons
“Bucketfoot Al” batted .300 with 100 or more RBI in each of his first 11 major league seasons. He reached the 200-hit mark six times (including 253 in 1925), and batted .380 or higher four times. With career totals of 2927 hits, 1507 runs, 307 HR, 1827 RBI and a .334 batting average, Simmons clearly is one of the greatest left fielders to ever play the game. Adding to his resume the fact that he batted .329 and slugged .658, with 6 HR, 6 2B, 17 RBI and 15 runs scored in 19 World Series games, and it’s hard to imagine that there could be four players at his position that are better than he is.
Smitty’s Six
Joe Jackson
To most people, “Shoeless Joe” Jackson will always be remembered as the guy who first appeared out of the cornstalks in Iowa. The fact is, Jackson belongs on the side of Mount Otsego when discussing left-fielders. Nicknamed “Shoeless Joe” because he took his new cleats off his feet during a game because of a blister, Jackson had a 12-year career in Major League Baseball despite being banished in 1920 by Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis for his “association” in the Black Sox scandal. Jackson finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .356, with 1772 hits and 785 RBI. At .356, he has the third highest career batting average in major league history. In 1911, Jackson batted .411, which is the highest batting average in a single season for a rookie player. To this date, Jackson still holds White Sox franchise records for triples in a season and career batting average. Whether he was innocent or guilty of association with the Black Sox scandal is up for debate between baseball historians. Whether Jackson should be on the side of Mount Otsego…well that is a conversation for this site.
Jim Rice
For most Red Sox fans, Jim Rice’s recent election to the Baseball Hall of Fame was overdue. For others, there are questions about whether he should be there. But there is no doubt that Rice belongs in this conversation. Rice finished with a career batting average of .298, 2452 hits, 382 HR and 1451 RBI. The eight-time All-Star was the American League MVP in 1978. Rice and Ty Cobb are the only players in the American League to lead the league in total bases three years in a row. He batted over .300 seven times, drove in 100 runs eight times, and had 11 seasons with 20 or more home runs. It should be noted that, while Rice won only one MVP award, he finished in the top five in the voting five other times. Defensively, Rice finished his career with comparable fielding percentage (.980) and outfield assists (137) to Ted Williams’ numbers: .974 fielding percentage and 140 assists.
Willie Stargell
Talk about the greatest left fielders of all-time and any Pirates fan would tell you that “Pops” Stargell belongs in the conversation. The seven-time All-Star finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .282, 2232 hits, 475 HR and 1540 RBI. Stargell, known for swinging a sledgehammer in the on-deck circle, was part of two World Series champions. In 1979, he won the National League MVP, the NLCS MVP, and the World Series trophies in the same year. To date, Stargell is the only player to ever accomplish the feat. Many baseball historians will say that his numbers suffered from playing in Forbes Field for the first 8 season of his career. Probably exaggerating to make his point, teammate Roberto Clemente estimated that Stargell hit about 400 fly balls to the warning track in left field at his home park. Left-center field at Forbes was measured at 457 feet.
Billy Williams
When you have a discussion about the greatest left fielders of all-time, Billy Williams has to be in the conversation. The former Rookie of the Year was a six-time All-Star selection who finished with a .290 career batting average, 426 HR, 2711 hits and 1475 RBI. “Sweet Swinging Billy Williams” played with Ernie Banks, Ferguson Jenkins and Ron Santo to form some good Cubs teams that never played in a postseason game.
Ted Williams
“The Splendid Splinter” not only comes up in conversations regarding the greatest left fielders of all-time, Williams also comes to mind when discussing the greatest players to ever play baseball. The two-time MVP led the American League in hitting six times and won the Triple Crown twice. Williams finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .344, 521 HR and 1839 RBI. “The Kid” is the last player to hit over .400 for a season (.406 in 1941), and both of his Triple Crowns wrapped around his first of two tours of duty in the military service (1942-1946 and 1952-1953). Based on the evidence of when he won both Triple Crowns, it is easy to surmise that Williams potentially lost four seasons at the peak of his career.
Carl Yastrzemski
Imagine having to replace one of the greatest hitters in the game and responding to that pressure by putting up Hall of Fame numbers yourself. “Yaz” did just that, replacing Ted Williams in left field and finishing his 23-year career with a lifetime batting average of .285, 3419 hits, 452 HR and 1844 RBI. He was an 18-time All-Star and won seven Gold Gloves during his career. Yaz won the 1970 MVP award and is also the last major league player to win the Triple Crown. In 1968, when pitchers held a significant advantage over hitters, he finished the year as the only American League player to hit over .300, at a meager .301.
Now that we’ve thrown a dozen names out there, bring it on folks. Let’s talk all-time greats out in left field.
Shoeless Joe; a .356 lifetime average, but it was said that “his glove is where doubles go to die”. A black mark for gambling (questionable at best) is a lot less a hindrance to naming him to Mt. Otsego than is a black mark for steroids.
Ted Williams – his numbers speak for themselves.
Yaz – seems funny going with 2 in a row from same team, but then same may happen in CF with 2 Yankees.
Simmons had great numbers and his teams did well.
Musial was never spectacular but always good. Equal to Williams in numbers, but never in reputation.
Pete – I thought Shoeless Joe’s glove was where triples go to die? 🙂 How’s retired life treatin’ ya? Are we gonna have to put homer alert on you? Two BoSox players? I thought we only had to worry about Wally and the Windy City / Notre Dame / …
My picks – Shoeless Joe – gambling does not improve on the field performance…or does it?
Ted Williams? Hmmmm…he never won a gold glove though?
Have I mentioned how much I dislike Barry Bonds? I used to consider myself a Giants fan. Alas, I cannot keep him from my top four.
I’m thinking about my last one.
My top 4 are: Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Al Simmons & Ricky Henderson.
Coming close but not quite there are Bonds (his numbers are tainted) and Shoeless Joe (you bet I wanted to get a ChiSox player in there, but his spectacular career was “short” and I tend to discount the pre-1920’s era … that’s just me).
Henderson may not be a popular pick here on the bench, but if you take a look at all those runs scored … that is the object of the game afterall … he has to be one of the most productive offensive players of all time … at ANY position.
Man … what incredible offensive numbers were delivered at this position througout history!!
Musial was never spectacular?!? Really Pete? You’re kidding, right?
Are we really going to start using quotes from Kevin Costner movies to rate players? Let’s also not forget that Joe Jackson’s career ended at age 30, so we never had a chance to see whether or not he was one of those guys with a great peak but not a lot of staying power. And before you go saying it wasn’t his fault, let me point out that Eddie Collins and Ray Schalk were on that team and didn’t allow themselves to get caught up in the fix.
Rickey Henderson should be a popular pick Wally. You’re right on with that one. There is no one who can compare to him in the greatest leadoff hitters of all-time discussion. That has to count for something.
Chas,
No win shares reported, this wouldn’t be my fault would it now?
Pete,
I like how you say that Williams’s numbers speak for themselves, and also that musial had equal numbers, but was never spectacular. I guess in the case of Musial, the numbers just lost their tongue.
Pete —
Please tell us you’re not putting “All that Yaz” in your Top 4 … ahead of Stan THE MAN. Could be heading toward another heated discussion 🙂
Pete – how’s the kitchen? ‘Cause you sure are getting plenty of heat? 🙂
The ‘where-triples-go-to-die’ comment originated (at least for me) in a WP Kinsella novel. But didn’t he get that comment from someone else?
Rickey Henderson – nine different teams, 4 stints with the A’s – hmmmm……something tells me he wore out his welcome.
Hey … no … say hey … some guys hang on a bit too long … like Willie Mays. Maybe Henderson was one of them, but geeeeeeeeez he was a run scoring machine. Any time he got to 1B, there was a great chance he’d be on 3rd or better before you knew it. And to get that kind of power from a guy who stole that many bases. Wow!!!
One of the reasons he turned out to be such a journeyman in the end is because he was with the A’s … they’re always trying to go on the cheap with the younger guys … always have since Finley owned them. Too concerned with value on not enough with winning. Those 70s A’s teams might’ve won 6 titles if Finley wasn’t so cheap. Now we’ve got Billy Beene there!!!
Oh … and you don’t think Bonds was a jerk who annoyed the hell out of his teammates, managers, and front office guys?!?!?
I should have just gone to bed instead of looking at the bench. At least I’m stirring the pot. I believe Kinsella did not originate the quote about Jackson’s glove, and I still believe it was “doubles go to die”. As to Musial, I just don’t remember spectacular, and I was a closet Cards fan in some of his years. I just remember a guy who always got the job done, was well known, but still lived in several shadows. Maybe it was playing in a midwest “town” instead of a major city, or maybe it was just the coverage he got in my little podunk newspaper. Yes to Yaz! Again, I believe the coverage Yaz got in Eastern/central NY may have influenced my decision. Remember, I vote on my memories of watching or reading about players. I tend not to look at the states in the very thorough way that Chas does. I think Chas’ methods are more scientific and more accurate, but I like “seat-of-the-pants” picking. BTW, Al Simmons had one of the greatest Strat-o-matic baseball cards for a hitter that I have ever seen. That’s why I picked him. Also BTW, good thing I am retired so I can recover from this barrage of questioning my valued opinion – LOL. I am not the least bit offended by the questioning. My positions are the least researched and least defensible of all contributors on the bench.
I’m happy to see the rush to defend Musial.
Gino, the lack of win shares has something to do with you, yes. But, mostly it’s just me realizing that those stats don’t mean all that much to the people here, and it’s kind of boring for me when I’m writing this to just rattle off a bunch of stats. So, I’m changing my approach a little. If my audience was a bunch of SABR members, that would be a different story.
I think Rickey wore out his welcome a few times, but in the end he was a better teammate than Bonds.
It sure does help your chances of scoring when you got guys like the ‘Roid Brothers (McGwire and Canseco) batting behind you in the order.
Oh yeah – the Yankees must have been trimming the payroll when they traded Rickey.
I am not going to defend Bonds. My point was Henderson played on a lot of teams. And Bonds played on how many?
Careful guys. If this discussion gets any more heated, Wally is liable to tell us how he has played ‘serious’ ball, talked to managers, and that the rest of us should just listen to him …Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Wally. You never knew there were five gospels huh?
Oh yeah – Wally – nice shot at Mays. You might wanna go take a look at your boys Banks and Santo. They didn’t hang on for a season or two? The difference is, they didn’t lose any time to the war. Do you think Mays might have hung around because he didn’t have any other choice considering how much players made at the time?
Casey, if it wasn’t for the steroids cloud, there would be no doubt about Bonds. This is a really tough one. In fact, this position might be the toughest so far. From the comments, I’d say it’s between Williams, Musial, Simmons, Yaz, Bonds, Henderson and Jackson. That’s seven guys for four spots. We’re going to need everyone to chime in here, guys, and we’re probably going to need for everyone to give us your four picks. So far, Wally’s the only one to do that. Pete, you gave us five (unless you were just mentioning Musial as your runner-up), and Casey gave us three.
Back to Bonds…he’s the only guy who you could have argued against Babe Ruth as being the most dominant of his era. But the steroids cloud is a factor. There’s no getting around it. Do we try to evaluate his career based on how good he was up to the point (we think) he started taking steroids?
Casey —
You made absolutey no point on Henderson … why waste the electrons???
Careful guys … if this discussion gets any more heated, Casey’s probably gonna retreat and change the subject … he’ll go around end and try to sneak in another post on the NYCBL. Whoops … there it is!
Wally,
I played NYCBL so easy there. I know its not serious baseball, but you know what, I enjoyed it.
Casey,
Does 9 different teams dispute the fact that he was one of the greatest. If you have any doubt he even called himself the G.O.A.T and he was right. He wore out his welcome? Something tells me that you wore out your welcome many places before, but everybody still love you as a brother, I know I do. I don’t think the issue that he wore out his welcome is even an issue in this matter, but let’s say he did. I don’t understand human behavior, but there is 1 thing that I’m still missing. Why did they keep signing him back? Some of the trades could easily be explained, but I think that’s overkill.
You said you were thinking about Bonds, let me know when you’re done so we can talk about him.
Gino – when looking at Bonds, I am considering everything up until ’98. 3 MVPs, a bunch of gold gloves (I value that award), some pretty good regular season numbers…abysmal numbers in October.
Wally – electrons? really?
Gino – the only team that brought Henderson back was Oakland. Maybe they thought he would grow out of his self-centered ways. When it comes down to picking the top 4 from a position can we consider the possible over-valuing of one component of a game. Henderson was run scorer, and that was it. For all the runs he scored, he only played on 2 WS championship teams. Only? Shoot, that’s two more than Banks and Santo. Thing is that second team was the Blue Jays where Rickey was a hired gun and he batted under .200 in the post season. If there was so much love for him, then why didn’t guys come out of the dugout to congratulate when he broke the stolen base record?
Casey, isn’t that a pretty major over-generalization to say Henderson was a run scorer, and that’s it? Well, isn’t that half the game…the other half being to prevent runs?
I honestly don’t think you’re talking about any defensive deficiencies here. I think you’re actually implying that, somehow, he was a one-dimensional offensive player. If that’s what you’re saying, you’re wrong. He was an on-base machine (.401 lifetime OBP), had good (but not great) power, and obviously was the greatest base-stealer ever, by an unbelievably wide margin (although Tim Raines had a higher success rate). He also batted over .300 seven times, although twice he would’ve fallen just short of qualifying for the batting title. Which brings me to an argument that you haven’t used against him, but probably should have. He was injury prone. Rickey’s hammy was pretty infamous in New York.
So, is there any part of his offensive game that would be considered a weakness? For that matter, considering he was a far better outfielder than Ozzie Smith was a hitter, is there any part of his game that would be considered a weakness? Other than a left fielder’s throwing arm (although we’re not talking Johnny Damon here), I can’t think of one.
So tell me exactly what you mean by us over-valuing one component of the game?
If Rickey was so great, why so many teams?
Rather than answer that question, let’s look at this “so many teams” claim a little more closely. From 1979 to 1992 (clearly the prime of his career), Rickey played for exactly TWO teams. Oakland traded him to the Yankees, as many teams do when they know they can’t afford someone any longer and want to get a few prospects in return. The Yankees later traded him back to Oakland, because the Yankees sucked in the late 80s and yes, he had turned into a pain-in-the-ass. At least that’s how I remember it, but I don’t talk to general managers, so I don’t know for sure.
In 1993, Oakland traded him as a hired gun to Toronto. Does that make him unique? He then returned to Oakland in the off-season, evidence that they had no problem with him, just wanted to get some value for him when they could. A pretty shrewd move I would say. He played two more years with Oakland, then at age 37, left for San Diego as a free agent.
So, now we’re talking about having played for three teams until his later 30s. After that, he moved around a lot, because he was unwilling to pack it in and retire while he still had some skills. If you want to judge his entire career by the fact that he played for seven teams in his final eight years (from age 37 to 44), that’s your prerogative. I choose to judge his career more based on the 17 years prior to that (age 20 to 36), when he was one of the best players in the game and changed teams no more frequently than many of his contemporaries.
So Rickey batted .300 seven times – how did he do for the other 70% of his career?
Yeah and he managed one gold glove – tough to get that award with the likes of Gary Pettis and Jesse Barfield dominating the outfield play in the 80s. Oh wait, Ellis Burks took one in the 80s too.
With all those numbers – why weren’t Rickey’s teams more successful?
Chas – you’re making a strong argument for Rickey. Is he one of your four?
Did you point out a weakness, Casey? I didn’t use the Gold Glove as an argument, and I’m not saying he was Rod Carew. He batted .279 lifetime, which is pretty good (not great), but made up for it with a .401 OBP. So, there’s no weakness there. He wasn’t a great outfielder, but he was pretty good to good. No weakness there either.
Why so much emphasis on how successful his teams were? I think you’re overvaluing one position player’s ability to carry his team. How many World Series did Barry Bonds’ teams win? If anyone should have been able to affect his team’s performance, it would have been him.
I’m making a strong argument for Rickey because you’re making such a strong argument against him. The Barry Bonds/Joe Jackson factor is making it difficult for me to decide on my four, but I’ll let you know. One thing’s for sure, Ted Williams and Stan Musial will be there.
.401 OBP – how many by virtue of fielder’s choice?
Do you want to reconsider that question Casey?
What is Mt. Otsego? The place where we hail guys that are good to pretty good at several aspects of the game.
No – I don’t want to reconsider.
Okay, I am adding my two cents:
My picks: Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Yaz and Ricky Henderson
Splendid Splinter – Because he is Ted Williams and one of the greatest to ever play the game. Arguably the best hitter in history of the game – a 2.85 Walk/Strikeout Ratio is just mind boggling. Only DiMaggio might be better.
Stan Musial – Because Stan is the Man, and like everyone has said here – the numbers speak for themselves. I don’t think it is coincidence that this guy played in the Mid-West at the same time as Williams and DiMaggio, and didn’t get the same write up. Williams and DiMaggio certainly played in the big cities and to some degree – reaped the rewards of having big city press. I am not sure Musial is every part Williams’ equal, but I believe he belongs on this side of Mount Otsego.
Yaz – I think Yaz put up phenomenal numbers and the face of enormous pressure to replace a legend. Also put of incredible numbers at a time that pitchers dominated the game because of the raised mound.
Rickey Henderson – The greatest leadoff hitter to ever play the game. Enough said.
Just out: Al Simmons, Barry Bonds and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Al Simmons because I know enough, but my memories of Yaz put it over the top for me. Bonds – I don’t discount his greatness, but I don’t know where to draw the line between what is legit and what is tainted. For me, that penalizes Bonds. It’s too bad really – he could have been on this 4, had steroids not come into the picture.
Shoeless Joe Jackson – I want to put him on this list – but I can’t. I will argue that he is in the Top 5 greatest hitters of all-time, but like Wally said – his career wasn’t long enough.
Casey, a fielders choice counts as a time at bat, but does not count as a hit nor a time reaching base. The only things that count as times reaching base are hits, walks and hit by pitches. So, when a batter reaches base on a fielders choice, it hurts his batting average and his OBP.
I didn’t use any of Rickey’s “pretty good” skills as arguments for him, but rather to dispute what it sounded like to me was your claim that he was a one-dimensional player. He was great at a number of things, and he had no glaring weaknesses. That defines a number of the players we’ve already put on Mt. Otsego.
so there you see – I shouldn’t be included in these baseball discussions. My pot-stirring is over for now. I will allow the baseball minds to take over from here.
Although I do recall someone mentioning in another discussion that batting .300 in a season can be over-emphasized.
Casey’s picks:
#1 – left fielder with the best statistics
#2 – left fielder with the 2nd best statistics
#3 – left fielder with the 3rd best statistics
#4 – left fielder with the 4th best statistics
Now that that is done, I can attend to some NYCBL stuff. Gotta change the OBPs. Guess I screwed up on the fielder’s choice.
Maybe I’ll wait for Wally’s next article. Hey it’s been almost two months. He’s due for one any week now. Maybe his next article will actually contain a little more of his own material instead of his last Twitter-like post.
I’m sorry Yaz fans …. actually redsoxnation …. Yaz was a great player …. but he’s clearly a FULL NOTCH below at least 7-8 of the nominees. Are you gonna at least admit some homerism here. (Pete … you seemed to come clean on that, thanks).
Gino … no criticism at all intended at the NYCBL … that was just a poke at Casey. I’m a big fan of all CBLs … we’ve got a good one here in Alaska, too.
Casey … not sure why you dislike Henderson so much. Sure he was a prima donna … but he was clearly one of the best 5 tool players that our generation got to see for his entire career. IMO, he was the one that made those LaRussa A’s teams great …. he’s the one that set the table for the Roid Boys …. he’s the one that was always on base making life hell for pitchers and distracting them from focusing on hitters. He had power and speed plus the natural instincts for great baserunning … and ultimately run-scoring. Nobody EVER used speed as an offensive weapon better than Ricky. Pitchers were absolutely terrified of him. Throw him strikes and he might just hit it out … walk him and you just threw him a triple.
w/r/t Bonds …. as others have said, it really is too bad he did the roids … cuz I think he easily would have been a 4 MVP, 550+ HR guy, several gold glove power/speed guy … without any enhancements! But because I just don’t know where to draw the line, I’m leaving him off my list.
Clearly my “twitter like posts” are bringing the quality way down here on the bench, so no need to wait for the next one.
Wally – I could take the words you used to describe Henderson, make adjustments to fit the particular sports and I would be describing Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson, and Matthew Barnaby.
I certainly wasn’t trying to say you don’t belong in these discussions, Casey, but I had to point out your misinterpretation of a statistic that means a lot to me. In fact, it means more to me than batting average. Yes, I called batting average an over-rated statistic, but I’ll say once again that since you were calling Rickey a one-dimensional player, I was defending his other dimensions. Also, just because I said batting average is over-rated doesn’t mean that I think it’s totally meaningless.
You’ve done a good job of “stirring the pot” and making this left field discussion a little more interesting. I certainly never intended to take up the Rickey Henderson cause so strongly, but since you were attacking him so forcefully, I felt I had to address your issues with him.
My four are Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Rickey Henderson and Barry Bonds, in that order. For Bonds, although we really don’t know for sure when he started taking steroids, I’m ranking him 4th based on 1986-1998. If his career ended at that point, I would still rate him higher than Joe Jackson, Yaz and Al Simmons. That said, I’m uncertain if this is the right approach, but it’s the one I’m going with until I learn more about the steroids era.
Wally, I think you’re under-rating Yaz. I would rank him 5th, followed by Jackson, Simmons and Delahanty.
Chas – I agree with you on Bonds, but I am taking the opposite approach. Since I don’t know where it started and it is obvious it started. Nobody’s head gets that much bigger…. except Wally’s. (kidding Wally) unless you are taking something. But that is neither here nor there.
The fact is – I don’t know where it started and because of it – I can’t put him in my Top 4.
Wally, I would like to see you list the Top 7 or 8 that are better then Yaz and tell me why… I want to see how you do this, but like Chas says – I think you are completely underrating him.
Chas —
You’re probably right … I’m a little too harsh on Yaz. Some past baggage … I was rooting heavily for the Red Sox in that ’75 classic World Series vs the Reds and Yaz just totally underwhelmed us in some very criticial situations, so I’m probably being unfair to him. On the other hand, a .285 career BA and only five 100 RBI seasons at a “run-producing position” like LF puts him squarely behind Simmons and Jackson, IMO.
I think Musial and Ted Williams are in.
My third vote goes to Henderson. I think Wally was on to something when he was talking about how disruptive he was. I remember watching games and once he got on base the whole philosophy of the defensive team seemed to change. Middle infielders seemed to take an extra step towards second base or leaned that way because of Henderson’s speed, or the pitcher would throw over to first 10 times. I have to believe that affects your concentration. I don’t have a statistic to measure how disruptive he was I just have to believe he affected the stats of his teammates in a positive way.
My final pick comes down to Yaz, Bonds and Stargell.
Yaz reminds me a bit of Ripken – steady
Bonds was a great great player – he was one of the few baseball players i would go out of my way to watch – but the steroid thing… just can’t seem to shake it
Stargell – not as impressive numbers but I remember the “We are Family” Pittsburgh Pirates of ’79. They epitomized the team concept and Stargell was the leader of that group. And which one of you who were of adolescent age at that time did not mimic his warmup routine?
So partly based on sentimental reasons I go with Stargell.
If you are going to knock Yaz for the lack of run production with only 5 years of 100 RBI. Didn’t he play most of his career when pitching dominated baseball because of changes to the game ( pitchers mound was raised)? I think we alloted that distinction to some players in previous discussions ( a la Ernie Banks) . In fact Banks had only 4 – 100 RBI season in the 60s.
So if you are going to use the argument for some players during that era, you have to use it for all of them.
Yaz had 5 100 RBI seasons (67, 69, 70, 76, 77). His 1844 career RBI rank 12th on the all-time list. Only two left fielders have more – Bonds and Musial.
On another note – Henderson’s .401 OBP ranks him 55th all-time. Some of those ahead of him – Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, Bobby Abreu, Chipper Jones, and Lance Berkman. Oh wait – he’s a whole two percentage points ahead of …Brian Giles.
It’s amazing what you miss, by not looking at the bench one day.
Barry Bonds lovers:
Just so that we’re clear, I have a question. Do you want to take Barry Bonds 12 years, consider it a full career and compare it with all the other players? Or do you want to take his first 12 years and romanticize on what a career he would have had and than as you’re comparing, bear in mind that it was only 12 years and that’s why people with longer careers had better numbers.
If you don’t understand what I mean, let me know. Maybe I can throw in examples.
On the other hand – Henderson struck out 1694 times – 22nd on the all-time list. That would make him head of the class as far as lead off hitters striking out. His 297 HRs rank him at …126.
You only gave us three names before, Casey. Does this mean that making Yaz your fourth?
OK, so 55th all-time doesn’t make Rickey the Ty Cobb of OBP. Mickey Cochrane is 55th all-time in batting average at .320. So, Rickey’s OBP is on par with a .320 batting average. I’m pretty sure most people consider that to be an excellent lifetime mark.
I admire your persistency, Casey. It’s driving me a little nuts, but I still admire it. 😉
Rickey’s 2nd all-time in walks. That more than offsets being 22nd all-time in strikeouts. As we all know, in order to walk, you have to be a selective hitter. If you’re a selective hitter, that means you’re going deep into counts, and hitting with two strikes on you a lot. Since you have to have two strikes on you before you can strike out, it stands to reason that guys that walk a lot also strike out a lot. Guys who go up there and hack at everything don’t strike out as much.
Rickey walked about 30% more frequently than he struck out. In the AL in 1985 (I just picked this year randomly as one that fell within his time frame), strikeouts were almost 60% more common than walks. Therefore, Rickey’s strikeout-to-walk rate is pretty exceptional.
Geez Chas I can’t find anybody with any weaknesses.
You mean kinda like Lou Brock.
“Guys who go up there and hack at everything don’t strike out as much.” You mean like Reggie Jackson, Sammy Sosa, and Jose Canseco?
So if Rickey was the best lead off man of all-time, and he is worthy of being on Mt. Otsego and he played with probably the best closer of the decade (Eck) two notable starters (Stewart and Welch), two of the best sluggers of the decade (McGwire and Canseco) – why did they only manage to win 5 World Series games in three trips to the Fall Classic?
Where does Dave Kingman fall in that strikeout-to-walk ratio conversation?? 🙂