Moving to the outfield, in part 6 we’ll be discussing a position with quite the dichotomy of candidates. That is, one inhabited by several players–two of whom are discussed here–with black marks hanging over their careers, but also includes two of the most highly respected and revered Hall of Famers in the history of the game. That position is Left Field.
Let me make one clarification, though, before we continue. In the “black mark” category, I am not referring to Pete Rose. We’ve decided to go with the idea of adding a utility category for players whose careers don’t easily allow them to fit into a particular position. Rose will be considered as part of that category.
And now, on to the candidates.
Chas’ Picks
Barry Bonds
When I nominated Alex Rodriguez for the Mount Otsego of shortstops, his name wasn’t even mentioned in the passionate debate that ensued. I don’t think we’re going to be able to ignore Barry Bonds as easily, though. Considering his career at face value, there is no way we could justify not bestowing this honor on the all-time home run king. In addition to topping the career list for round-trippers, he is the all-time leader in walks and intentional walks, and is 6th in OBP and slugging percentage, 5th in adjusted OPS, 4th in RBI and total bases, and 3rd in runs. Add to that 514 SB, 8 Gold Gloves, 13 Silver Sluggers, 14 All-Star selections and seven MVPs, and there is no way we can deny him his place on the mountain. Or can we?
Ed Delahanty
“Big Ed” was one of the greatest hitters of the 19th century. He played for 16 seasons from 1888 to 1903 and compiled a career batting average of .346, producing 1599 runs scored and 1464 RBI in just 1835 games. He led the league in slugging percentage and doubles five times, home runs twice, RBI three times, and extra base hits four times. His tragic death in 1903 at the age of 35–he was swept over Niagara Falls in what was believed to have been a drunken accident–is also the subject matter of a song that appears on the best baseball album ever, 2008’s Frozen Ropes and Dying Quails, by indie rocker Steve Wynn and R.E.M. sidekick Scott McCaughey, otherwise known as The Baseball Project. [Link is to a youtube video of the band performing on Letterman]
Rickey Henderson
Of all of the major career marks, Rickey’s 1406 stolen bases just may be the most impressive of all, especially considering it’s approximately 50% more than the second name on the list. But, Henderson wasn’t just the “Man of Steal”, he was the greatest leadoff hitter in the game’s history, holding the all-time mark for runs (2295) and ranking second to Bonds in walks (2190). 297 HR, a .401 OBP, 10 All-Star selections, an MVP and a Gold Glove, and it all adds up to an icon whose likeness wouldn’t look out of place on top of Mount Otsego.
Stan Musial
“Stan the Man” was Ted Williams’ counterpart in the National League, and every bit the Splendid Splinter’s equal. But, when discussing the greatest hitters of all-time, how often do we hear arguments for Musial’s name to top the list? Whether that is an injustice to him or not–considering his .331 lifetime batting average, 3630 hits, 475 HR, 1949 runs, 1951 RBI, seven batting titles, 20 All-Star selections, and three MVPs (plus four second place finishes)–it seems unlikely that anyone could not rate the oldest living Hall of Famer as one of the four greatest left fielders in history.
Tim Raines
Tim “Rock” Raines is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than several left fielders who are already in the Hall, including Jim Rice and Lou Brock. But, I’m not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you of that here. You can read this if you want to learn more about how I feel about Raines’ Hall of Fame snub. However, if you want to discuss the relative merits of Raines vs. Brock, or dispute the fact that Brock is the worst first-ballot Hall of Famer and, quite possibly, the most over-rated player in baseball history, bring it on.
Al Simmons
“Bucketfoot Al” batted .300 with 100 or more RBI in each of his first 11 major league seasons. He reached the 200-hit mark six times (including 253 in 1925), and batted .380 or higher four times. With career totals of 2927 hits, 1507 runs, 307 HR, 1827 RBI and a .334 batting average, Simmons clearly is one of the greatest left fielders to ever play the game. Adding to his resume the fact that he batted .329 and slugged .658, with 6 HR, 6 2B, 17 RBI and 15 runs scored in 19 World Series games, and it’s hard to imagine that there could be four players at his position that are better than he is.
Smitty’s Six
Joe Jackson
To most people, “Shoeless Joe” Jackson will always be remembered as the guy who first appeared out of the cornstalks in Iowa. The fact is, Jackson belongs on the side of Mount Otsego when discussing left-fielders. Nicknamed “Shoeless Joe” because he took his new cleats off his feet during a game because of a blister, Jackson had a 12-year career in Major League Baseball despite being banished in 1920 by Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis for his “association” in the Black Sox scandal. Jackson finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .356, with 1772 hits and 785 RBI. At .356, he has the third highest career batting average in major league history. In 1911, Jackson batted .411, which is the highest batting average in a single season for a rookie player. To this date, Jackson still holds White Sox franchise records for triples in a season and career batting average. Whether he was innocent or guilty of association with the Black Sox scandal is up for debate between baseball historians. Whether Jackson should be on the side of Mount Otsego…well that is a conversation for this site.
Jim Rice
For most Red Sox fans, Jim Rice’s recent election to the Baseball Hall of Fame was overdue. For others, there are questions about whether he should be there. But there is no doubt that Rice belongs in this conversation. Rice finished with a career batting average of .298, 2452 hits, 382 HR and 1451 RBI. The eight-time All-Star was the American League MVP in 1978. Rice and Ty Cobb are the only players in the American League to lead the league in total bases three years in a row. He batted over .300 seven times, drove in 100 runs eight times, and had 11 seasons with 20 or more home runs. It should be noted that, while Rice won only one MVP award, he finished in the top five in the voting five other times. Defensively, Rice finished his career with comparable fielding percentage (.980) and outfield assists (137) to Ted Williams’ numbers: .974 fielding percentage and 140 assists.
Willie Stargell
Talk about the greatest left fielders of all-time and any Pirates fan would tell you that “Pops” Stargell belongs in the conversation. The seven-time All-Star finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .282, 2232 hits, 475 HR and 1540 RBI. Stargell, known for swinging a sledgehammer in the on-deck circle, was part of two World Series champions. In 1979, he won the National League MVP, the NLCS MVP, and the World Series trophies in the same year. To date, Stargell is the only player to ever accomplish the feat. Many baseball historians will say that his numbers suffered from playing in Forbes Field for the first 8 season of his career. Probably exaggerating to make his point, teammate Roberto Clemente estimated that Stargell hit about 400 fly balls to the warning track in left field at his home park. Left-center field at Forbes was measured at 457 feet.
Billy Williams
When you have a discussion about the greatest left fielders of all-time, Billy Williams has to be in the conversation. The former Rookie of the Year was a six-time All-Star selection who finished with a .290 career batting average, 426 HR, 2711 hits and 1475 RBI. “Sweet Swinging Billy Williams” played with Ernie Banks, Ferguson Jenkins and Ron Santo to form some good Cubs teams that never played in a postseason game.
Ted Williams
“The Splendid Splinter” not only comes up in conversations regarding the greatest left fielders of all-time, Williams also comes to mind when discussing the greatest players to ever play baseball. The two-time MVP led the American League in hitting six times and won the Triple Crown twice. Williams finished his career with a lifetime batting average of .344, 521 HR and 1839 RBI. “The Kid” is the last player to hit over .400 for a season (.406 in 1941), and both of his Triple Crowns wrapped around his first of two tours of duty in the military service (1942-1946 and 1952-1953). Based on the evidence of when he won both Triple Crowns, it is easy to surmise that Williams potentially lost four seasons at the peak of his career.
Carl Yastrzemski
Imagine having to replace one of the greatest hitters in the game and responding to that pressure by putting up Hall of Fame numbers yourself. “Yaz” did just that, replacing Ted Williams in left field and finishing his 23-year career with a lifetime batting average of .285, 3419 hits, 452 HR and 1844 RBI. He was an 18-time All-Star and won seven Gold Gloves during his career. Yaz won the 1970 MVP award and is also the last major league player to win the Triple Crown. In 1968, when pitchers held a significant advantage over hitters, he finished the year as the only American League player to hit over .300, at a meager .301.
Now that we’ve thrown a dozen names out there, bring it on folks. Let’s talk all-time greats out in left field.
Lou Brock walked 761 times and struck out 1730 times. He is nothing like Rickey Henderson. Jackson and Canseco both walked quite a bit. Sammy Sosa didn’t. Congratulations, I made a generalization and you pointed out an exception. The point was that guys who work counts and walk a lot also strike out a lot. Throwing the sentence in that you quoted me on had nothing to do with Rickey Henderson.
How many times did Brock strike out on a full count?
How many intentional walks did Jackson and Canseco earn?
I think we were talking about Rickey Henderson, weren’t we? Anyway, I’m pretty sure if everyone on this thread was physically in a room having a discussion, everyone but me and Casey would have rolled their eyes and walked out by now.
So, we’re still waiting to hear from a few people, but so far, it’s Teddy Ballgame and Stan the Man, with Rickey leading the rest of the pack for now. The fourth guy is completely up in the air. Rey has been noticeably absent and Gino’s been pretty quiet, so maybe we’re not done yet.
Chas – to quote you – that is one of the more passive aggressive comments I have seen on this site.
That was intended as a humorous jab at both of us, Casey. Sorry to include you in my attempt at self-effacing humor.
Let’s not forget about Al Simmons as very viable for the fourth slot overall. Along with Bonds and Yaz, he’s got pretty strong support from a few of us as well.
Maybe we need a forced ranking from the bench on the 3 of those guys?
Actually, by my count, Simmons, Yaz, Bonds and Joe Jackson each got two votes each. So, anyone who wants to vote on the relative merits of those four guys, please do. You can rank them in order if you want, or just give us one name. We’ll sort it out from there.
Anyone else who we haven’t heard from, feel free to chime in as well. Or, if someone wants to change their picks, that’s fine too.
For me I rank them:
Yaz
Simmons
Jackson
Bonds
In my mind, steriods hurts Bonds that much to list him as 4th in that list. But they are all great players – can’t go wrong either way.
I’m going to rank them:
Bonds
Yaz
Jackson
Simmons
It’s a tough call. I’d be happy with anybody being the fourth.
Gino, I totally missed your comment from yesterday. I think that if Bonds’ career ended after 1998, I’d still rank him higher than the other three. So, I’m not romanticizing about what he would have done had he not taken steroids. I’m more uncertain about this one than any other. If this was an actual Hall of Fame ballot, I’d probably be losing sleep over it, but that’s just me.
This tie-break is really tough to call. You guys have caused me to re-evaluate Yaz and to some extent Bonds. So on these 4, here’s my highest to lowest:
1) Simmons — sustained offensive excellence, including great post-season numbers. .334 career BA and TWELVE 100+ RBI seasons in what was a relatively short career (essentially 16 years). RBIs speak to me a great deal … that’s a bias I have. (Note: Babe Ruth had 13 seasons with 100+ RBI)
2) Bonds — he was a 3 time MVP by 1993, exhibiting a fantastic power/speed combination before the ‘roids kicked in, I think 😉 Probably would have been a 4 time MVP without the juice and that’s very hard to ignore. Great fielder. Still, he’s tainted.
3) Yaz — a great player, indeed. I’m now factoring in that most of the ’60s were dominated by pitching. Plus, his durability/longevity scores him some points with me … pretty much a full 24 yrs. Great fielder, too.
4) Jackson — As fantastic as his numbers are; he essentially only played 10 seasons. We will never know what might have been. He also played in a dead ball era, so power numbers are deceiving. But he did slug at a .517 clip.
So if we remain deadlocked on votes for the 4th place, are we going to give credit for the guys in how they were ranked ? For instance Simmons has one first place vote, one second place vote and one fourth place vote. Yaz has a first place, a second place and a third place.
Just curious.
I was just thinking about using a scoring system (1st place – 4 pts, 2nd place – 3 pts, etc) regardless. If someone just votes for one person, then I’ll count the remaining three as tied and give them 2 pts each. If there still is a tie, we’ll use the secret tiebreaker that only you and I know about. 😉
Sorry I was gone so long. Rolled my eyes and left the room days ago (see Chas’ comment about 15 earlier). Actually, 3 of the 4 in the tiebreaker are in my top 4, and Bonds is not in my top 100 (I could not care less about stats when it comes to “I’m Barry Bonds…and you’re not.”). N
Pete, don’t beat around the bush. Let us know how you really feel about Bonds. 😉
Wow – if Bonds isn’t even in Pete’s Top 100 – does that mean Bonds gets negative points towards the 4th place voting. 🙂
No, but the “Pete’s despisement of Barry Bonds” factor is now our final tiebreaker. 🙂
My top 4 are: Musial, williams, henderson, yaz. 3400 hits is impressive.
If you trim bonds’ career to 12 years, he then suffers from early retirement and his overall career stats won’t match the players who played 15+ years.
So, you’re saying he couldn’t accumulate enough Win Shares in 12 years, Gino? 😉
I have no problem leaving Bonds off of Mt Otsego. I was starting to think that I shouldn’t have voted for him, considering how uncertain I am about whether he deserves to be honored.
hahaha, I’m saying even if he did, I didn’t look!!
Steroids aside, why did you vote for him? Just curious, not attacking or anything. You may even use win shares to explain this to me, I know what it is, and if you choose to, you can not explain it to me.
In other words I’m just trying to see if you’re uncertainty is from steroids controversy or something else.
Gino – sorry about the hold up. For some reason, your previous comment was sent into the spam folder. I had to retrieve it.
🙂
My uncertainty on Bonds is 100% the steroids controversy. If he had the career he did, without the cloud hanging over it, he would be hands-down the greatest left fielder of all-time…in my opinion, and probably a lot of other people’s.
I could use win shares or conventional stats to back that up, of course. The only strike against him is the lack of a World Series ring, but Ted Williams doesn’t have that either. That brings up an interesting point…how come no one ever holds that against Williams? Is it because of the Red Sox? In fact, no one holds it against Ernie Banks either. I guess the message is, if you played for the two most hapless teams of the 20th century, you get a free pass for not bringing them championships.
Honestly, I’m not saying we should use that against them. I’m more likely to argue the point the other way around. You can’t hold it against other people either.
Tangent alert! OK, back to Bonds. At face value, he’s easily on Mt Otsego. But, we can’t simply judge him at face value, so do we just eliminate him from the discussion, or somehow try to put his accomplishments in perspective? I’m uncertain of the answer, although I tried to do the latter, but that’s really difficult.
Actually, I want to revise “the two most hapless teams of the 20th century” to “the two most hapless teams of the post-deadball era 20th century”. I realize they won 7 World Series between them early on.
The “I’m Bonds and you’re not” quote is not an original. It was on the cover of SI long before steroids were seriously discussed. I have disliked Bonds since he left the Pirates. Even being Say Hey Willie’s Godson can’t overcome my disdain for him. I will NEVER honor Bonds in ANY way. If I can break that tie by eliminating Bonds, y’all have made my day.
Chas, your “face value” comment is so accurate, and what I have been all about on Mt. Otsego. Bonds is the best left fielder statistically. I hope that is not considered honoring him by saying so. Still a NO vote from this benchwarmer. Stats don’t cut it for me.