This Sammy Sosa thing has me thinking. So, even though, I generally don’t like to talk about the whole steroids subject, I feel compelled to.
There is one attitude among some voting members of the BBWAA that they need a little time to see how things shake out before deciding how to vote on the suspected/incriminated steroids users. I don’t have a problem with this, but I do have an opinion on how it might shake out.
I’m thinking that, unless there is credible evidence that a guy used steroids, his career needs to be considered on its merits.
HOF caliber players on whom there is credible evidence: Rafael Palmeiro, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens.
HOF caliber players who are suspected, but on whom we don’t have any real evidence (correct me if I’m wrong): Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McGwire.
HOF caliber players who are suspected, but on whom there is gray-area evidence: Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield.
You might disagree on what categories I’ve placed these guys in. I really don’t know how good the evidence is against Bonds and Sheffield in the BALCO case, so maybe their cases are worse than I thought.
But, my main point is, while I don’t have a problem with taking a “wait and see” approach on guys were not sure about, doesn’t there need to be more than a mention in Jose Canseco’s book and/or an ill-fated quote to a grand jury to keep a guy out of the Hall?
Crossword Petesays
Shoeless Joe is not in the HOF for a similar body of “evidence”. That may be apples to oranges because of the times, but at least baseball is maintaining consistency, for what that’s worth.
Wallysays
I thought we had a bit more on McGwire … or at least his responses to questions where quite incriminating … can’t remember which, maybe it was both.
Chas – I think that is the approach that we have to take in looking at each player’s respective career.
I have been trying for awhile to look at a player’s career and decide if it was Hall of Fame worthy before the steroid evidence appeared.
Problem is with players like Rafael Palmeiro, he was a singles hitter in Chicago, that became a sweet swinging, home run hitter with the Orioles and Rangers. But where did the steroid use start? Where can I draw a line in the sand and say these stats are legit? I can’t in his case. I can’t think that just as steroids were becoming an issue in MLB, Palmeiro decided to start taking them. I think he just got caught.
Similar situations in Sammy Sosa. Before the home run explosion for Sosa, he was an average outfielder. He was a good outfielder, but not the Sammy Sosa we started to see. But suddenly his home runs jumped and he began averaging 55 home runs a year for a 5 year span. Where do I draw the line?
Similar with players like Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds…It is hard drawing a line in the sand.
I find it tiring to even think about this stuff anymore.
My concern is for the players (Don Mattingly, Andre Dawson, etc.) whose careers at one time seemed Hall-worthy. Now, the advent of steroids has made voters think the ‘Hawk’ and Donnie Baseball didn’t have that impressive of careers.
‘Skinny’ Sammy to ‘Swingin’ Sammy to ‘Silent’ Sammy…Sayonara Sammy
Shoeless Joe was banned, so therefore, he’s ineligible for the Hall of Fame. That’s a MLB decision, whereas the writers are still allowed to vote on the “steroids guys”.
You may be right, Wally, that there is more evidence on McGwire. My memory is that good about that sort of thing.
I guess Smitty makes a point that there are other types of evidence besides drug test results and personal admissions. I’d hate to use change in body type as the only evidence against someone, but when it’s combined with other evidence, that’s another story.
I find it tiring too, Casey. I just hope to be able to make some sense of it someday. You deserve a helmet sticker for that last line, but I don’t have that kind of power. 🙂
Someone please pick a topic and get us started.
This Sammy Sosa thing has me thinking. So, even though, I generally don’t like to talk about the whole steroids subject, I feel compelled to.
There is one attitude among some voting members of the BBWAA that they need a little time to see how things shake out before deciding how to vote on the suspected/incriminated steroids users. I don’t have a problem with this, but I do have an opinion on how it might shake out.
I’m thinking that, unless there is credible evidence that a guy used steroids, his career needs to be considered on its merits.
HOF caliber players on whom there is credible evidence: Rafael Palmeiro, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens.
HOF caliber players who are suspected, but on whom we don’t have any real evidence (correct me if I’m wrong): Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McGwire.
HOF caliber players who are suspected, but on whom there is gray-area evidence: Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield.
You might disagree on what categories I’ve placed these guys in. I really don’t know how good the evidence is against Bonds and Sheffield in the BALCO case, so maybe their cases are worse than I thought.
But, my main point is, while I don’t have a problem with taking a “wait and see” approach on guys were not sure about, doesn’t there need to be more than a mention in Jose Canseco’s book and/or an ill-fated quote to a grand jury to keep a guy out of the Hall?
Shoeless Joe is not in the HOF for a similar body of “evidence”. That may be apples to oranges because of the times, but at least baseball is maintaining consistency, for what that’s worth.
I thought we had a bit more on McGwire … or at least his responses to questions where quite incriminating … can’t remember which, maybe it was both.
Chas – I think that is the approach that we have to take in looking at each player’s respective career.
I have been trying for awhile to look at a player’s career and decide if it was Hall of Fame worthy before the steroid evidence appeared.
Problem is with players like Rafael Palmeiro, he was a singles hitter in Chicago, that became a sweet swinging, home run hitter with the Orioles and Rangers. But where did the steroid use start? Where can I draw a line in the sand and say these stats are legit? I can’t in his case. I can’t think that just as steroids were becoming an issue in MLB, Palmeiro decided to start taking them. I think he just got caught.
Similar situations in Sammy Sosa. Before the home run explosion for Sosa, he was an average outfielder. He was a good outfielder, but not the Sammy Sosa we started to see. But suddenly his home runs jumped and he began averaging 55 home runs a year for a 5 year span. Where do I draw the line?
Similar with players like Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds…It is hard drawing a line in the sand.
So for now, I am just going to wait and see..
I find it tiring to even think about this stuff anymore.
My concern is for the players (Don Mattingly, Andre Dawson, etc.) whose careers at one time seemed Hall-worthy. Now, the advent of steroids has made voters think the ‘Hawk’ and Donnie Baseball didn’t have that impressive of careers.
‘Skinny’ Sammy to ‘Swingin’ Sammy to ‘Silent’ Sammy…Sayonara Sammy
Shoeless Joe was banned, so therefore, he’s ineligible for the Hall of Fame. That’s a MLB decision, whereas the writers are still allowed to vote on the “steroids guys”.
You may be right, Wally, that there is more evidence on McGwire. My memory is that good about that sort of thing.
I guess Smitty makes a point that there are other types of evidence besides drug test results and personal admissions. I’d hate to use change in body type as the only evidence against someone, but when it’s combined with other evidence, that’s another story.
I find it tiring too, Casey. I just hope to be able to make some sense of it someday. You deserve a helmet sticker for that last line, but I don’t have that kind of power. 🙂