After a brief layoff, the Mount Otsego series returns with a discussion of one of the most important positions on the field, and one that should warrant a lot of passionate debate. That position, of course, is Shortstop.
Chas’ Picks
Derek Jeter
At this position, only three guys—Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan and Alex Rodriguez—have a higher win shares per year average than Jeter. He’s also the captain, and undisputed leader, of a team that won four World Series in a five year stretch. His 2607 career hits put him within range of overtaking Lou Gehrig this year for the most by any Yankee in history. Additionally, Jeter adds 1502 runs, 214 HR, 1028 RBI, 287 SB, a .315 lifetime batting average, .386 OBP and three Gold Gloves to his resume. Lastly, he’s played almost an entire season in the postseason, and the numbers are outstanding: 123 games, 85 runs, 153 hits, 17 HR, 16 SB, .309 BA, .377 OBP, and he won the 2000 World Series MVP.
Cal Ripken Jr.
The Iron Man was more than just an exceptionally durable, hard-working player and an excellent leader among his peers. He was simply a great player, who amassed 3184 hits, 431 HR, 1695 RBI and 1647 runs, while winning two MVPs, two Gold Gloves, and being named to 19 consecutive All-Star teams during a 21-year career. He’s also second all-time among shortstops in career win shares.
Alex Rodriguez
This one is going to be a bit controversial, but not because he has played third base for the past 5+ years, of course. On that subject, he’s still played 500 more games at short than at third, and—despite the fact that we’re talking hypothetically about carving these players’ heads in stone on a fictitious mountain—I consider Mount Otsego to be a living, breathing entity. That is, if we decide to revisit this concept in a few years, we can easily decide to replace one guy with another, or even to move someone from one spot on the mountain—i.e. position—to a different one. Regarding the real controversy, you have every right to decide against him, but if it wasn’t for the steroid issue, he would no doubt belong on the mount. Therefore, he needs to be part of the discussion. Oh yeah, the numbers: 561 HR, 1631 RBI, 1621 runs, 2430 hits and 147 OPS+, not to mention the three MVPs, two Gold Gloves and the fact that only Ripken, Wagner and Robin Yount have more career win shares. All this, and he doesn’t turn 34 until next month.
Arky Vaughan
The greatest left-handed hitting shortstop of all-time, Vaughan was Honus Wagner’s successor as the best at the position. He played 12 outstanding years until serving in World War II from 1944 to 1946. Unfortunately, he was in his mid-30s upon returning and the time he missed cost him, as he never regained a full-time job. Still, he amazingly accumulated 356 win shares, averaging close to 30 per year during the dozen seasons that made up his prime. Only Rodriguez and Wagner can match that level of performance. A lifetime batting average of .318, on-base percentage of .406, 2103 hits, 1173 runs, 926 RBI and a 136 OPS+ are among his statistical accomplishments. He also was named to nine consecutive All-Star teams from 1934 to 1942.
Honus Wagner
John Peter Wagner is arguably among the 10 greatest players of all-time, and there’s little doubt that he’s tops among those who manned this position. Bill James’ Black Ink Test ranks players based on the number of times they led the league in various categories, with more important categories weighted more heavily. It’s called Black Ink because leading numbers are typically represented in boldface type. Although it was easier to lead the league during the time frame that Wagner played, it’s still pretty amazing to look at his hitting record and see how covered in black it is. I’ll let Smitty rattle off Honus’ numbers, although I’m confident his case needs very little support.
Robin Yount
Yount made his major league debut at the age of 18, so when he switched to the outfield, due to a shoulder injury in his late 20s, he had already spent 11 years as a shortstop. He finished his career having played 200+ more games at short than in the outfield, and ranks third all-time at the position in win shares. He finished his 20-year career with 3142 hits, 251 HR, 271 SB, 1632 runs, 1406 RBI, two MVPs, a Gold Glove, and a first-ballot Hall of Fame election.
Smitty’s Six
Ernie Banks
Mr. Cub certainly deserves to be on this list. The 11-time All-Star finished his career with a .274 career batting average, 512 HR and over 1600 RBI. Banks was a two-time MVP who also won the Gold Glove award in 1960. To date, Banks still holds Cubs records for games played (2528), at bats (9421) and total bases (4706).
Cal Ripken Jr.
Do I need to add more? The Iron Man himself revolutionized the shortstop position as he proved that taller, bigger shortstops could be successful at the major league level. 2632 consecutive games played, 19-time All-Star, two-time Gold Glove winner, 3184 hits, 431 HR, 1695 RBI, and two-time MVP. Can I stop now?
Ozzie Smith
The Wizard is not on this list because of what he did with his bat, but rather what he did with his glove. He was a 13-time Gold Glove winner, with a career .262 batting average, 2460 hits and 580 stolen bases. Smith was also a 15-time All-Star, and as Bud Harrelson was once quoted as saying: “The thing about Ozzie is, if he misses a ball, you assume it’s uncatchable. If any other shortstop misses a ball, your first though is, ‘Would Ozzie have had it?’”
Arky Vaughan
Vaughan is possibly the greatest shortstop you have never heard of. It wasn’t until I started researching the shortstop position that I actually found out about him. He’s considered by many, including Bill James, to be the second greatest shortstop to ever play the game, behind Honus Wagner. With a career batting average of .318, 2103 hits and 926 RBI, Vaughan also lost three years of playing time due to WWII. He was also a nine-time All-Star.
Honus Wagner
The Flying Dutchman is considered by many—including Bill James—to be the greatest shortstop ever to play the game. Wagner was one of the first five players to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. His peers, such as Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth, considered him the greatest player of their time. A .327 career batting average, 3415 hits, and 1732 RBI, Wagner also had 722 stolen bases and 252 triples during his 21-year career. Plus, his T206 card is one of the rarest and most expensive baseball cards in the world. That says something, right?
Robin Yount
Yount spent most of his career at shortstop for the Milwaukee Brewers until a shoulder problem forced him into the outfield. He finished with a career batting average of .285, 3142 hits, 251 HR and over 1400 RBI. He was a three-time All-Star, who also won a Gold Glove, and was a two-time MVP. In fact, Yount is one of four players in Major League Baseball history to win the MVP trophy at two different positions.
Can you name the other three? Without looking it up, of course. Oh, and don’t forget to chime in with your opinions of who are the greatest shortstops of all-time.
Yount, Ripken and Wagner all have 3000 hits. But Wagner hit a lot of his hits prior to the beginning of modern baseball(1903). I’m not a fan of age discrimination, but I think that it should be taken into consideration that his best years came in the 1800’s and he never won a mvp award But if your card is the most expensive, that says everything to me.
The problem that presents itself is that the shortstop position has evolved over the years. And if we take the position at face value, we run the risk of alienating many lifetimes worth of shortstops.
If Arky Vaughan is to be the face of all shortstops, one of the most important positions on the field, people should have heard of him.
If Derek Jeter hits 3000 hits in my mind he’ll be one of the best. Till that happens, I’ll see him as a over hyped, new york product who benefited from playing with great players.
Ozzie Smith, and ernie banks need no introduction.
I have 5 guys if that’s allowed. At this time, I can’t bring it down to 4.
Yount, Ripken, Wagner, Smith, Banks.
Later on in the week I’ll be back to make it into 4.
The MVP was first awarded in 1911, when Honus Wagner was already 37, so you can’t hold that against him.
Jeter should have no problem reaching 3000 hits, Gino. The exception I take with that statement is that you’re saying that once he reaches that level he instantly transformed from over-hyped to all-time great. That’s placing a little too much weight on a milestone, but it’s not surprising, because that’s what people do.
I don’t know what to say about why a lot of people don’t know much, or nothing at all, about Arky Vaughan, but they should. He’s easily better than Ernie Banks and light years better than the way over-rated Ozzie Smith, in my opinion. But, of course, I’m basing that on statistics and the opinions of experts, all of whom are well aware of Vaughan. Like Smitty said, Bill James ranks him #2 all-time. While I’m at it, here’s his list:
1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
That was actually as of the year 2000, so Ripken and Larkin played a little beyond that, but didn’t add much to their cases.
Speaking of Smith…he was a below average hitter and an outstanding fielder. That’s far from top four all-time in my book. I also think he gets the benefit of style points from a lot of people (Smitty’s Harrelson quote is a good example of that), and if that isn’t over-hyped, I don’t know what is. If he’s top four, then Omar Vizquel is top 10…and Vizquel is not in the top 10.
Mark Belanger deserves a mention. I have never seen a sweeter-fielding shortstop than him. Ozzie spent most of his career playing on a comfy rug while Belanger played his career on the cow pasture of Memorial Stadium. I swear the creator of the Price Is Right’s Plinko Board came up with the idea after watching a game at Memorial. Gee…let’s create a game where you have no idea how to predict the bounce of an object. Yeah, that will drive everyone crazy. The Memorial Stadium infield played like that, and Belanger still earned 8 Gold Gloves.
Smitty – no mention of Ripken spending part of a summer in Rochester?!? Geez.
My four: Ripken, Banks, Wagner, Yount
I never understood Ozzie Smith in this discussion either. He was off the charts with flare, but the guy simply was not nearly what many others were offensively. You can’t really over-emphasize one; there has to be a balance of greatness there for me if we’re talking about top 4. My cheat sheet has Ozzie at 19! And a guy like Vizquel, whom Chas mentioned, is not far behind at 23. I find that to be somewhat accurate.
Someone not mentioned from my lifetime but not as worthy as these others is Alan Trammell.
I can’t decide on my four yet, so I’ll be back. Now if you’ll exscuse me, I have to go turn in my Cleveland Indian fan card for mentioning a Detroit Tiger.
On Honus Wagner:
I was merely stating a fact, before including him in my top 5(soon to be trimmed to 4, but not in this post)
On Derek Jeter:
You’re right Chas he’ll have no problem hitting 3000+ hits, but taking a page from your experts, Derek Jeter is also the worst fielding shortstop in the game. Which leads to my statement of him benefiting of a winning team, good players and New York media. Any player with 3000+ hits to me, is an all time great. But till he does it, he’ll be judged on how many games the Yankees win(since he’s the captain) and how good his commercials look.
On Arky Vaughan:
I respect the opinions of your experts, but like Chris Saban said in the movie “The Negotiator,” “I read many books and than decide for myself what happened.” And one of the stories I read is that it took the Veterans Committee to put him in the hall of fame.
On Ozzie Smith:
You’re absolutely correct he was a below average hitter. But he was also arguably the best , I think 2nd best fielder, fielder at any position. Did he have style points? Yes, he had enough that the BCS would put him by himself in the National Championship game, but is his defense overrated, your expert, Bill James doesn’t think so. And that my friend does sound like Mount Otsego to me.
A Shortstop can’t over-emphasize defense? He is the most important fielder on the field. Most balls get hit to him. Every team looks for a defense first guy at the position, otherwise Jose Offerman would still be playing shortstop.
I didn’t mention Vizquel, you can put him wherever you like as far as I’m concerned. I’ll be back another time to trim my picks to 4.
Yes – by stating that Ozzie Smith should be top 4 is over-emphasizing defense. Omar Vizquel had a better fielding percentage and fewer errors in two more seasons than Ozzie. Not to mention that Vizquel’s offensive numbers are better than Ozzie’s.
So – somebody please tell me why Ozzie Smith is top 4 without making the whole defensive argument where Omar statistically was more efficient than him.
My top 4 shortstops:
Wagner: The legendary Flying Dutchman was one of the top players at any position … ever.
Banks: Mr. Cub displayed unprecedented power numbers at this position, and his enthusiasm made him an all-time fan favorite in the Windy City and throughout the midwest. “Lets play two!”
Ripken: Power, grit, durability and a pretty good fielder to boot. Breaking Gherig’s record while playing SS is an incredible accomplishment.
Ozzie Smith: Snuck into my Top 4 because I actually saw him play a lot. Just cannot ignore the 13 gold gloves … and yes, he had pizzazz. Defense at SS cannot be over-rated … I agree with Gino. Nice stolen base total as well.
—————————————————————————————————
Arky Vaughn … who knew??? I just could not put Arky into my top 4 despite some REALLY impressive numbers. One of the main reasons … I pondered it and after thinking about who he played for, I still cannot name his team and refuse to cheat and look it up. So who did Arky flash the leather for during his stellar career???
Gold Gloves is a subjective award that is voted on. So I ask again – why Ozzie Smith and not Omar Vizquel?
Wait – seeing someone play a lot is criteria for Mount Otsego? I didn’t know this. Then Belanger has to be in my top 4. Besides, I think he led the league in sacrifices a couple of years.
Since “defense at SS cannot be over-rated”, why don’t we just go with Ozzie, Vizquel, Belanger and Luis Aparicio. Forget Honus Wagner. He never won a Gold Glove. Oh wait…there were no Gold Gloves back in his day.
They aren’t “my experts”, Gino, who say Jeter is the worst defensive shortstop. (I’ll admit that I shouldn’t have used the general term “experts”, so if you were calling me out on that, that’s fine.) Jeter’s been rated by some as among the worst defensive shortstops over the last few years, but when the Yankees were winning World Series, he was around average. The point you’re all missing here is that, when we call someone an average defensive shortstop, we’re talking about someone who is already good enough to be a major league shortstop, which means they’re all pretty damn good.
But, I’m not really concerned with arguing that Jeter should be one of our final four. I’d rather argue for Vaughan, but he appears to be a lost cause (I’ll get back to him later, though), so I’m going to take up the argument that there is no way Ozzie Smith belongs.
First of all, it seems pretty obvious to me that everyone agrees on Wagner and Ripken. After that, we still have Banks, Smith, Yount, and I’m going to say it still counts for something that both Smitty and I included Vaughan on our lists.
No one is saying that Ozzie is over-rated as a defensive shortstop, but I’m saying that you’re over-valuing that compared to the offensive prowess of other guys. Since you mentioned Bill James, Gino, he does write that Ozzie is probably the best defensive shortstop of all-time. He also writes that Ozzie’s teams made 504 more assists at shortstop than the average team over the course of his career. Although this doesn’t translate perfectly to the idea that he got to 504 more balls than the average shortstop would have (obviously, there are other factors), it’s as close as we’re going to get. Assists, not assists plus putouts, are the best measure of a shortstop’s range.
If we take Ozzie’s offensive numbers, and add 500 hits, we get a .315 hitter. Pretty damn good, of course, but none of Ozzie’s plays saved home runs, and probably only a small percentage of them saved doubles, so if we add 600 to his total bases (400 singles plus 100 doubles), we get a .392 career slugging percentage for Ozzie. Well below average, and let me remind you that the other players we’re comparing him to are, obviously, well above average offensive players. Even Omar Vizquel had almost three times as many homers in his career as Ozzie.
Here are a few other guys we haven’t even talked about who deserve this honor over Ozzie Smith: Luke Appling, Barry Larkin, Joe Cronin, Lou Boudreau.
There are a number of Hall of Fame shortstops I’d put Ozzie ahead of, though: Joe Sewell, Dave Bancroft, Rabbit Maranville, Joe Tinker, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Travis Jackson.
Since everyone seems to be ignoring Rey’s point, why doesn’t someone explain with some analysis, why Ozzie Smith is better than Omar Vizquel. I will say that I think he is, but not by much.
Casey –
Yes, actually seeing “great players” perform helps make evaluations like this, but I realize it’s “unfair” to the players who came before our time. Such is life. Anyway, I said “great players”, so that rules out Belanger who was a great fielder but he couldn’t hit his way out of a paper bag.
To those downplaying Ozzie and the value of fielding in general, you gotta ask how many balls he fielded that other SS’s never even touched because of his range and athleticism. Sure he had a great fielding %, but he also probably had way more chances than practically everyone else per season. When it comes to Omar Vizquel, I agree that it’s hard to separate the two of them. The Wizard’s “star quality” is probably why folks tend to nudge him above Omar, but that’s probably not fair.
Forgot about Luke Appling and Luis Aparicio … shame on me.
So who did Arky Vaughn play for????
Wally – are you really going to use Ozzie’s offensive stats? Let’s see he hit .262, with 793 RBI, and 28 hrs. Belanger hit .228 with 389 RBI and 20 hrs. To use your analogy – Belanger couldn’t hit his way out of a bag (I think it is supposed to be a wet bag) while that’s all Ozzie could do. It makes little diffference. Niether of those guys were going to be sent up to pinch hit.
All the to do about Ozzie and he finished top ten of MVP voting …once. For all of his back flips, pizzazz, and panche he only managed to get as high as second.
As for the ‘seeing great players’ – you are kinda missing my point. I saw Belanger play a lot and I remember thinking it was crazy some of the plays he made because the Memorial stadium infield played so inconsistently. Do you think that had any bearing on the number of plays Belanger could make? Wouldn’t that affect how he committed to a ball?
Explain with some analysis, why Ozzie Smith is better than Omar Vizquel. I dont have the time to run regressions, but I’ll try. Eventhough most stats look almost identical or can be explained by vizquel playing 2 more seasons. A few things jumped at me.
Omar Vizquel:
3 time all-star, 0 silver slugger awards, 77 HR’s, 986 SO’s,
Ozzie Smith:
15 time all-star, 1 silver slugger award, 28 HR’s, 589 SO’s,
Looking at defense, I see that Ozzie Smith had more than a thousand more chances and almost a thousand more assists, bare in mind Vizquel played 2 more seasons than Ozzie. That information plus a higher range factor, tells me that ozzie got to more balls than vizquel. If you get to more balls there is a bigger chance that you are going to make errors. Thus Ozzie’s fielding average is lower, by .007.
Here’s the trade-off, 7 more errors in a thousand plays and better range? The real life’s answer to that problem is that both guys can play defense.
On the basis of All star games appearances and a better defensive skill as it pertains to more range and about the same fielding average (difference of less than 1%) , I find Ozzie better than Omar!
I hope this answers Rey’s questions as to why Ozzie and not Omar.
The all-star selections are highly subjective, especially considering the fan voting. I don’t place much value in fan voting, particularly when it comes to a very popular, flashy player like Ozzie. But, as I said, I rate Ozzie ahead of Vizquel, but not by much.
There are a lot of players who, for some reason or another, seem to fly more under the radar than others. Arky Vaughan is probably one of them. I don’t know why it took the Veterans Committee to get him elected, but there are enough injustices handed down by the voting members of the BBWAA that I don’t place a whole lot of stock in the logic of some of the things they do either.
It’s possible that Vaughan suffered from playing in Pittsburgh. He also didn’t get to the postseason until late in his career, when he was in Brooklyn. There’s also the fact that his performance didn’t shine in Brooklyn like it did in Pittsburgh, so that probably hurt him. Lastly, there’s one thing that he did to himself as well. He didn’t miss those three years because he was drafted to go to WWII. He essentially prematurely retired to his Arkansas farm to support the war effort. However, many people believe he did it because of his disdain for Leo Durocher, who was his manager in Brooklyn. If he hadn’t done that, and he had added a few more strong years to his resume, maybe he’d be better known. But, unfortunately, he did what he did. Still, he had one of the best shorter careers of anyone, but it is hard to compare guys like him to guys who played 20 years, even if the performance of those in the latter category suffered in their waning years.
I would like to hear more from Rey and Casey. You guys have been commenting on this thread, but other than discussing Vizquel vs. Ozzie and the merits of Mark Belanger (albeit somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I believe), you haven’t really told us who your picks are.
I gave my four above – Wagner, Yount, Ripken, and Banks.
I wasn’t being tongue-in-cheek with Belanger. He was as good of a defensive shortstop as anyone on here.
Maybe we should do an under the radar Mt. Otsego. Arky and Josh Gibson would head the list.
I guess I overlooked that Casey, thanks. I realize you were serious about Belanger’s defensive skills. I just thought you were also using him to make a point.
Ripken
Wagner
Yount
Banks
I’m an avid Yankees hater, but I honestly think when Jeter is finished with his career, he replaces Yount on this list. I can’t put him now, but I wish I could.
Gino – thank you for the breakdown. My argument in the matter is this: not whether or not Vizquel or Smith is better. I honestly don’t know. But – I don’t think Ozzie Smith is top four all time. Defense is half of the equation for me, and I know SS is important.
Great conversation everyone!!
The player that really stuck out to me and actually almost made my Top 6 – would have bumped Ernie Banks out of the group was Lou Boudreau. The fact that impressed me the most was that he was a player/manager for the Cleveland Indians for most of his career. In fact he is the only major league player to win the MVP award in the same year, as leading the Cleveland Indians to a World Series title.
Sure his numbers are not impressive match up against some of the other players being mentioned: .295 career batting average, 1,778 hits and 789 runs batted in. But I would submit that his numbers probably suffered because of his managerial duties.
Not sure he makes it in the Top 4, but he certainly earned a lot of my respect for the major league career.
Reynell – there is one for the Indians!!
I am going with the following as my Top 4:
Ripken
Wagner
Yount
Vaughn
Smitty —
Please tell me you’re not serious about Boudreau possibly bumping Ernie Banks. Boudreau is certainly unique as a player/manager and he was a very good player, but … c’mon … not one of the all-time great SS’s!!! Let’s face it … they were having trouble finding someone in Cleveland smart enough to manage the team, so they let Boudreau do it even though he was a player.
My top 4 is the same as Smitty’s, but if someone’s going to bump Vaughan, banks is a much more acceptable choice than smith.
I just cannot understand Yount being in the Top 4, especially at the expense of Banks. 512 HR and 1,600 RBI !!!!! From your shortstop!!!! Hello??????
Wally – did you read what I wrote? When I was selecting my Top 6 for this article, I “considered” submitting Boudreau instead of Banks. I didn’t say Boudreau was in the Top 4 – in fact I said, “I don’t think he makes in the Top 4” which is code for “He is not in the Top 4”.
My point was that I gained alot of respect for Boudreau’s career, considering the unique double role he had on the Indians team.
As for Banks – like the guy and he will always be remembered as Mr. Cub. But let’s not forget that he was moved from the shortstop position in 1963 to first base.
Banks hit 235 of his 512 home runs at first base, so really you got 277 home runs from your shortstop. 674 of his 1,600 RBIs came from the first base position, so that is 900+ RBIs from the shortstop position. Obviously all very impressives numbers and that Home runs was a record until Cal Ripken came along. But let’s keep Banks’ numbers in perspective.
For me, Banks is in the Top 5 and pushes Yount…But he is just on the outside. of Mount Otsego.
Banks pushes Yount off of Mt Otsego. Let’s not forget that Yount spent 9 years at another position as well. Ernie’s 277 HRs as a SS are 27 more than Yount had for his ENTIRE career!!!! And Yount played 328 MORE games than Banks, who played almost his entire career BEFORE they gave the advantage back to hitters by lowering the mound and shrinking the strike zone. It’s not even close.
So …. again I ask …. how can Yount be ahead of Banks????
Banks was out-of-this-world from 1955-60, but after that, he was really nothing special. From 1961-68 (he turned 37 in ’68, so it’s reasonable to consider this the second half of his career), he averaged 25 HR per year (pretty good), but batted .263 with a measly .312 OBP and a not-very-special .461 slugging percentage.
I feel as though Yount, while he didn’t have the peak that Banks did, sustained a higher level of play over a longer period of time. Also, Yount had a better all-around game (good power/speed combination) and when he changed positions it was to another important one.
Now, I realize we’re talking about these guys as shortstops here, and taking their full careers into consideration, but it’s hard for me to overlook that Banks was nothing more than an above average first baseman for more than half of his career.
That said, more people probably rank Banks ahead of Yount than the other way around, so I don’t consider it crazy to favor Banks. I just think Yount is better. I also think that Vaughan is better than both of them.
Thanks, Chas. Although I don’t agree with elevating Yount over Banks, I at least understand where you’re coming from. And, yes, you’ve opened all our eyes regarding Arky … so thanks for that, too.
Where’s Pete … on vacation??? I always look forward to his perspective on these debates. Somebody please find him 🙂
I can feel Arky’s pain. Man, how quickly people forget. That’s all right. It’s great that places like Pickin’ Splinters are around to keep our legacy going.
Willie Wells played a mean short for Homestead. I wasn’t his teammate. He only played one year – when I was playing in Cuba.
That guy slapped 27 home runs one year. I tell ya that was an accomplishment. We were playing some beat up balls.
At least they knew you well enough to forget about you, Josh.
No value in All star selections, no value in hall of fame voting, no value in gold gloves. I agree with the last part, there is no value in gold gloves.
Chas, you said you wanna talk Ozzie Smith, lets talk Ozzie.
You said that none of Ozzie’s plays saved home runs, and probably only a small percentage of them saved doubles. But you don’t know that!!! What about the cases where there were 2 outs and a hit goes through against an inferior shortstop that doesn’t get to the ball and the inning goes on. If Ozzie were the shortstop, would he have saved homeruns and doubles if they came in that prolonged inning? In my opinion yes, because the inning would have been over. Therefore I say that not only did his plays save homeruns and doubles, but it saved games and seasons.
I never intended to pass Ozzie as something he’s not, which is a good hitter. The point I set out to make is that every so many years, there comes a guy that’s extremely special at one aspect of the game. If that is offense we’d just make him a DH. In Ozzie’s case it was defense. Defense is the main emphasis of the shortstop position. I’m not saying that defense is the only aspect of the position, just the most important one. And Ozzie is so far above the rest at the most important thing at his position that I feel that he’s one of the top 4 shortstops ever to play the game.
To deny Ozzie Smith a spot as one of the top shortstops ever to play the game, is to go against a hundred years of baseball. Which is what Bill James was trying to do, when he made the list that you mentioned above.
Rey:
Defense has been the main point at shortstop for a hundred years. Great offensive shortstops were welcomed, but defense continued to be the norm. If you could hit, but you couldn’t field the ball, they moved you to a different position. To me that signifies defense being more important at the position than offense. I’m not the one over emphasizing defense, it is just how it is at the shortstop position.
C’mon Gino! I feel left out. You gotta take me to task too. Don’tcha? I slagged on Ozzie more than anyone.
Gold Gloves mean more to me than all-stars.
🙂 🙂 🙂
First of all, I didn’t say there was no value in All-Star selections and Hall of Fame voting. I just said, and you know this is true, that much of the All-Star voting is a popularity contest, so of course that favored Ozzie Smith. There have also been many injustices in HOF voting, so I don’t accept your argument that Vaughan needing the Veterans Committee to get elected diminished his accomplishments in comparison to the other guys.
If you’re going to argue that, by virtue of Ozzie making plays that got his team out of innings, he saved home runs, then the same applies to the offensive end. Ozzie’s low OBP resulted in a lot of innings that ended prematurely. Therefore, his teammates weren’t able to hit home runs behind him. The bottom line is all that we can give someone credit for is what he did or didn’t do, not what someone else may or may not have done as a result of what he did.
So, you’re saying that ranking Ozzie Smith at the 7th best shortstop of all-time is going against a hundred years of baseball? I would say that Bill James is being truer to the history of the game by trying to find ways to compare players he never saw to players that he did. Some of you guys never even heard of Arky Vaughan, and I’ll guarantee that, while he may not be #2 on everyone’s list, anyone who’s done a thorough analysis of the greatest shortstops of all-time has him in their top ten. I know that I owe a debt of gratitude to Bill James’ research for being able to better compare players across eras.
Even if defense is more important than offense at SS, that still doesn’t mean that the better defender is the better player. For instance, let’s say defense counts for 60% and offense counts for 40%. Let’s also say that, on a scale of 1 to 10, Ozzie is a 5 offensively and a 10 defensively, and Arky Vaughan is a 9 offensively and an 8 defensively. Doing some quick math:
Ozzie’s rating is: (5 * 0.4) + (10 * 0.6) = 8.0
Vaughan’s rating is: (9 * 0.4) + (8 * 0.6) = 8.4
I’m not expecting you to accept that those are the actual ratings, but hopefully this will help you understand my point. The most important factor is not the only factor.
We’re not going to get in a bill james discussion, cause thats not the problem at hand. And besides it would be boring to everyone else.
Casey:
My fault, I’ll be sure to correct that mistake first chance I get. You will not be left out anymore, my friend.
Gino – maybe I should have used a different word. My thing is, Ozzie was a GREAT fielder, either THE best or second best. But, he was a terrible hitter compared to the rest of these guys. He only hit 300 once, and the rest of the time he wasn’t even close. Nothing stands out other than his SO total, which you pointed out, and his SBs.
Now – for how many of these guys can you say that they were great hitters but terrible fielders? That’s too much of an imbalance for me. Perhaps I am the one guilty of over-emphasizing offense though when it comes to SS.
The whole DH thing – I see your point. But there is no designated fielder, so I feel as if we have to judge Ozzie at the plate as well. Because he’s a SS maybe we shouldn’t say it is a 50/50 split between fielding and batting; I’d more than agree with that.
Just my opinion. And Gino, just one thing, I am far from a baseball expert. But the Ozzie issue is one that always irks me.
This is VERY interesting … watching these spirited volleys go back and forth … and it’s very similar to the debate re: “What wins Championships … offense or defense?” that this site has seen a zillion times.
Don’t know how many of you have followed baseball very closely, played a lot of “serious” ball, talked to managers, etc. I have and some of you have. There’s one thing that hasn’t changed since I’ve closely followed/played/studied the game since 1970: Three positions on the field heavily favor defensive ability over offense …. Catcher, Shortstop and Center Field. Conversely, there’s two that favor offense … Left Field and 1st base. All the others are generally balanced. This is a “general rule of thumb”; there are of course exceptions when you look at this team or that team. But talk to any Manager or GM about what they want for their team, the first things they’ll say is great pitching and the second thing will be defensive strength up the middle (catcher, SS, CF).
Managers will tell you that they’ll take a slick-fielding shortstop who can’t hit versus one that makes an error every third game but hits very well. Why do you think Adam Everett (DET) is anywhere close to the Majors? Why do you think Mark Belanger enjoyed a 17 year career with a .228 BA. Shortstop is all about defense!!!! So many balls go through shortstop during the course of a game that you better have someone with great range, soft hands and a cannon arm to make that long throw from the hole. It’s not as important at 2B because you can boot a ball and still pick it up in time to throw out a runner.
So, not all positions on the diamond are created equal … I’m here to tell ya that it’s quite possible that managers and front office guys would weight shortstop as 70% defense and 30% hitting … maybe even 75/25. And that’s why I’m arguing that guys like Ozzie and Omar should definitely be in the discussion of greatest all-time SS’s. Ozzie’s .262 career BA is damn good for a SS and Vizquel hit .273!!! Heck, Ernie Banks was moved off of SS so that the light-hitting (.252) but slick fielding Don Kessinger could man that position. The value in guys like Ozzie, Belanger, et al is that they prevent 3 out innings from becoming 4 out innings, they’ll always turn the double play and they’ll even steal away a base hit that would otherwise score a few runs and/or start a rally. So many balls go through SS that you better have someone there that is completely solid, if not spectacular, athletically. (Which, by the way, is why “older” or injured guys get moved to other positions).
As a society of fans, we tend to worship offense more than we should. Nonetheless, if you can get a real good fielding SS who can also hit and produce runs … WOW … you’re way ahead of the game!!!! That’s why Ripken, Banks, Vaughan, Wagner, A-Rod, Yount, et al appear near the top of everyone’s lists. But I’m just trying to get everyone to realize that a .260 hitting SS who’s an awesome fielder is probably more valuable to a team than a .290 hitting average fielder. The problem is that comparing fielding ability and competence is quite difficult and one often has to resort to the eye test … if that’s even available. But just ask managers and GMs … they know the truth … Ozzie and Omar and Aparicio are worth their weight in gold 😉
And FRIGGIN’ MARK BELANGER who by the way played in the World Series three consecutive years. Can any of those other guys claim that?
“Don’t know how many of you have followed baseball very closely, played a lot of “serious” ball, talked to managers, etc. I have and some of you have.”
Wally? What is that supposed to mean?
So Wally – what you are saying is “Defense wins championships”? Because when we had this discussion a zillion times, I remember you being on the other side of that argument.
Casey – you were right. Defense wins championships!
“Conversely, there’s two that favor offense … Left Field and 1st base.”
So you mean guys like Mark Grace (Arizona ’01), Scott Spezio (Angels ’02), Jon Olerud (Blue Jays 92-93), and Youkilis (Sox ’07), Millar & Mientkiewicz (Sox ’04). Some real offensive juggernauts there. For that matter Tino Martinez never hit more than 30 hrs when the the Yanks won the world series with him at first.
Alright, so we’ve gone back and forth a number of times, and it appears that Wally and Gino prefer an excellent fielding shortstop who is an average (to below) hitter; and Casey, Rey, and I (and I believe Smitty) prefer a good fielding shortstop who is also a good hitter; and, more importantly, Wally wants everyone to know that he’s followed baseball very closely, played “serious” ball, and talks to managers, etc.
I think there’s no one here arguing against Honus Wagner and Cal Ripken, so it’s safe to say that they’re in. After that, it seems to me that Robin Yount and Ernie Banks have the inside track as the remaining two spots, with only me and Smitty supporting Arky Vaughan and only Gino and Wally supporting Ozzie Smith.
Anyone else lurking out there that wants to chime in? Has anyone’s opinion been changed by the discussion/debate here (and I don’t mean Josh G and Arky)? Does anyone want to guess who the other three guys are who’ve won MVPs at two different positions? (One of them is pretty easy, the other two…not so much)
What it means, Casey, is that some of us know baseball … and some of us know it better. Anyone downplaying the value of defense at the SS position is definitely not in the latter category.
No, I’m not saying that defense alone wins Chan’ships. But it sure is a good start! Let’s not get going on that again.
Chas, what’s your read on Luke Appling? Not a great fielding SS, but he hit .310 for his career with an OBP of .397. Maybe a top 10 guy, huh?
Didn’t Stan Musial win MVPs at OF and 1B? And of course there’s A-Rod (3B,SS) .
Yes, Casey, Friggin’ Mark Belanger was EXTREMELY valuable to those great Orioles teams. No argument there. (Woulda been nice if he coulda nudged that BA up to .230 though).
Chas
Unfortunately, we probably don’t have anyone lurking who has “played a lot of “serious” ball, talked to managers, etc.”.”
Maybe Wally can get Minaya and/or Huntington to come in and comment. Maybe they can explain Wally’s logic. One minute Wally professes defense – at least for Ozzie. Then it’s offense for Banks and against Belanger.
At least Minaya could give us a run down on his boy Reyes. Seems like I remember Wally struggling with that name a while back. It’s hard to imagine a guy that has talked to managers and all had never heard of Reyes.
That’s all right. Hey Wally! When we walk by your monument, should we genuflect? Or would it be okay with you if we gave a simple bow?
Oh yeah – before I forget. Wally in all of the offense/ defense talk you have lost track of the entire message: Offense wins games. Defense wins championships. The idea is offense can have a bad night. But to get a championship team through those times it takes defense.
Casey —
Since you’re asking, you should probably bow first and then genuflect. Then … you need to holler “Goooooo Irish!”. That would be nice. Thanks!
You know Wally, I may not be completely innocent of this myself, but this should never get to the point where we’re saying, “If you don’t agree with me, then you obviously don’t know as much about such-and-such sport as I do”. If they don’t agree with you, then maybe you try to convince them in a different way, and if that doesn’t work, big deal.
This is Smitty and my series and, so far, the only position where I’ve agreed with the final four is second base. But, so what. This isn’t about who my all-time greats are, it’s about me facilitating a discussion that leads to as close to a consensus as we can get. If I want to do a post that’s entirely about my opinions I will, and you can do the same.
HELMET STICKER!!!!!
Gee whiz! I have played a lot of serious ball and I have talked to a lot of managers, and now I can’t talk here.
Man, what’s a guy gotta do?
Sorry to hurt your feelings, guys. I guess I’m grounded, so I’ll just go sit in the corner and sulk. Later …
My thing is I don’t think anyone was trying to downplay defense at the SS position. I wasn’t though my use of “over-emphasize” may have made it seem like that. I know how important it is. But – we’re discussing the best ever. For me personally, and this goes in any sport, I want a well-rounded player who also stands out in either way – offensively or defensively. As a result, I traditionally look guys over like Ozzie Smith when we reach the top 4 or 5.
There are guys out there who legitimately try to argue for Ben Wallace as a “great” center because of his years in Detroit. In no way am I comparing he and Ozzie, just the circumstances. Even if Wallace had maintained such a career, I cringe at that thought because his offensive play was nothing short of horrible.
Wagner, Banks, Ripken, Jeter. All the arguments have been made + or -.