In the first part of the Pickin’ Splinters Baseball Mount Rushmore Series, we’ll be discussing what four catchers deserve to be recognized as the best of all-time.
Just to remind you of how this is going to work…each week, Smitty and I will briefly make our individual cases for the six players that we feel are worthy of nomination. We then ask our loyal readers/contributors to chime in with your opinions, and we’ll continue to discuss and debate the candidates until the next Friday. At that point, we’ll announce the four heads to be included on the Pickin’ Splinters Baseball Mount Rushmore, and start the process all over again for the next position.
From this point forward, though, we’re no longer using the term Mount Rushmore. This is about baseball, and if there was a perfect place for such a monument to the greatest game there is, it would be on a mountain overlooking Otsego Lake in Cooperstown. Therefore, we’re calling this fictitious monument, and this series, Mount Otsego.
Please also note that all lists of players are in alphabetical order by last name.
Chas’ Picks
Johnny Bench
Most frequently referred to as the greatest all around catcher of all-time, Bench compares favorably to anyone else offensively (389 HR, 1376 RBI, 1091 Runs, 126 OPS+) and defensively (10 Gold Gloves, 43% Caught Stealing). He also won two MVPs, was named to 14 All-Star teams, and is third all-time among catchers in Win Shares with 356.
Yogi Berra
The all-time leader among catchers in Win Shares with 375, Berra also maintains the remarkable distinctions of having been selected to 15 consecutive All-Star games and playing for 10 World Series championship teams. He also won three MVPs and racked up some pretty impressive offensive numbers (358 HR, 1430 RBI, 1175 Runs, 125 OPS+).
Mickey Cochrane
“Black Mike” was arguably the greatest catcher of the first half of the 20th century. He played only 11 full seasons, and finished in the top ten in MVP voting five times, winning the award twice, in 1928 and 1934. He also batted .320 all-time, with a .419 OBP and 128 OPS+, and led the Athletics to five World Series appearances–and three championships–in the seven seasons spanning 1929 to 1935.
Carlton Fisk
Although some might argue that longevity padded his numbers, that quality in a catcher has to be considered more valuable than for any other non-pitching position. Fisk ranks second all-time among catchers in Win Shares with 368, was selected to 11 All-Star teams and accumulated 376 HR, 1330 RBI and 1276 Runs in his remarkable career.
Mike Piazza
Defensively, he may be a little below average, but it would be virtually impossible to argue that Piazza is not the greatest offensive catcher of all-time (427 HR, 1335 RBI, 1048 Runs, .308 BA, 10 Silver Sluggers, 142 OPS+). For that reason, and the fact that he was a 12-time All-Star, he belongs in this discussion.
Ivan Rodriguez
Arguably the greatest defensive catcher of all-time (13 Gold Gloves, 47% Caught Stealing), I-Rod has also put up some impressive offensive numbers (298 HR, 1225 RBI, 1262 Runs, 124 SB, 7 Silver Sluggers) and has appeared in 14 All-Star games.
Smitty’s Six
Johnny Bench
Arguably the best catcher in the history of the game, Bench was both tremendous behind the plate with 10 consecutive Gold Gloves, and at the plate with 389 career HR and over 2,000 hits. He also won the MVP award twice.
Yogi Berra
AFLAC commercials aside, Yogi belongs on this list. Tied for most MVPs by a catcher with three, Yogi also was an All-Star 18 times and was part of Yankee teams that made it to 14 World Series. His career hitting statistics were a benchmark for many catchers who followed him.
Roy Campanella
Would have easily eclipsed Yogi’s hitting standards had a car crash not left him paralyzed at the age of 35. Campanella won the MVP award three times as well and was one of the first African-American players in MLB. Interesting note: Campanella was the first African-American manager in MLB history, when he took over for Walter Alston during a 1946 game after Alston had been ejected.
Bill Dickey
This lifelong New York Yankee (yes, a Red Sox fan putting another Yankee on this list) was not only great offensively–although mostly overshadowed by the likes of Gehrig and Ruth–but was considered one of the best defensive catchers of his time. His batting average in 1936 of .362 was the highest single-season batting average by a catcher until it was tied by Mike Piazza in 1997. Dickey also hit over .300 in 10 of his first 11 years in the majors.
Carlton Fisk
Fisk is the benchmark for all catchers in longevity, playing the position in parts of four decades, with over 2,499 games played. Hit over 376 home runs, 2,356 hits and 1,330 RBIs. Fisk was an 11 time all-star and the winner of a gold glove in 1972.
Ivan Rodriguez
For the record, I am not a fan of picking someone for Mount Rushmore when he is still playing. But this version of Pudge has been one of the greatest at the position and rivals Johnny Bench as the greatest. Pudge has won the Gold Glove award 13 times, was the 1999 AL MVP, and has been an All-Star 14 times. He helped lead the Marlins to a World Series championship in 2003 and is currently sitting two short of 300 career HR. I think he’ll make it to that mark.
Alright now, so it’s time to hear what you think. Bring on your opinions and let the debate begin.
I lean toward old-timers, especially at the #2 position. I can’t add anybody to your lists, but my top 5 would be a combo; Bench, Campy, Cochrane, Dickey, & Yogi. 6th would be a tie between Fisk and Pudge. The only guy not mentioned that came into my mind, but would probably not be defensible as top 6 is Tim McCarver.
I never realized before the hierarchy when it comes to backstops. It is difficult to suggest anyone that you don’t have on your lists. Maybe Gary Carter could be mentioned, but he pales in comparison. Actually he did win a couple All-Star MVPs so maybe he deserves nomination. 🙂
Love the bucolic Mount Otsego title.
Smitty and I had four picks in common, so that means we mentioned eight names total. The other two that I’d put in the top 10 of all-time are Gary Carter and Gabby Hartnett, who’s from the Cochrane-Dickey era.
McCarver’s OK for a personal favorite, Pete, but he doesn’t belong in this conversation.
Smitty, I’m going to challenge your contention that Campanella would have easily eclipsed Yogi’s hitting standards. That’s going a bit overboard. I’ll be back with stats/analysis to back up my point. 🙂
I can’t believe I did not think of Hartnett (the Cubbie) in particular and Carter. Just goes to validate Casey’s point. Yes, McCarver is probably on;y a “personal favorite”. He was on the 1964 WS champions and caught for the immortal Bob Gibson. At that time, for a brief period, as I weaned myself from the Yankees, St. Louis was one of my sports towns. Bob Petit and the St. Louis NBA Hawks were a team I really liked. Even the hapless Cards (NFL) were tolerable. But the MLB Cards – they beat the Yanks!
I eventually adopted Minn. as my pro sports “state”. Twins of Battey and Killebrew and Carew et al were easy to root for. Vikings of Kapp and Brown, Bud Grant and Gene Washington and later Tarkenton were my all-time favorite pro team (even ahead of the NYG of the 50s and 60s) and second overall to only ND. Ahhh, the good old days, when I cared about pro sports. But I digress. Good picks, even your backup backstops!
1- Bench – he did it all except steal bases (and no one’s going to begrudge a catcher this).
2- Ivan Rodriguez – simply because he has had the best arm of any catcher ever and had very good offensive numbers as well, but the arm factor weighs heavily with my ranking. According to Start-O-Matic Baseball Game Company, Ivan’ s was a notch better than any other catcher ever.
3- Roy Campanella – for what he did while he could (longevity is not a part of my criterion)
4- Dickey
5- Berra – playing for the best team in baseball for his stretch of years may have helped him do better for MVPs and some stats such as RBIs. If he did it all with a weak team, I would rank him higher. Ya gotta love ‘im tho!
6- Cochrane
7- Fisk
8- Piazza – not a complete package as a catcher.
Nice little list there, Dave. Thanks. It’s good to see some contribution from someone other than the usual cast of characters. No offense, guys. 😉
I promised some stats/analysis regarding the Campanella/Berra comparison, and here they are. I’m going to keep it simple, though. First of all, Smitty, to make that claim you also have to add that Campy missed out on a couple years at the start of his career due to segregation. So, since he played from ages 26 to 35, here’s a comparison of him vs. Berra in that age range:
Campanella (1161 hits, 242 HR, 856 RBI, .276 BA)
Berra (1408 hits, 243 HR, 935 RBI, .282 BA)
Campy, of course, was a better on-base guy, and you all know that I like that, but they compare favorably in career OPS+ (Berra – 125, Campanella – 124).
Also, to assume that a 35-year old catcher, especially one who had already shown signs of slowing down, would continue to put up big numbers is a little presumptuous. What happened to Campanella is tragic, but I just can’t give credit to someone for things that we’re speculating he would have done. No one seems to have done that for Thurman Munson, and he was 32 when he died.
Incidentally, Munson’s career matches up pretty favorably with Campanella’s in terms of win shares. Not including the year that he was 22 and batted 86 times, Munson accumulated 204 WS in 10 years. Campanella: 207 in 10 years. Why is Campanella in the HOF and Munson barely even received consideration?
Dave – great to see that retirement has not made the memory go soft. 🙂 You da man!
My mistake for not mentioning Munson. He is at least as worthy as Carter if not Fisk.
What? No mention of Ray Schalk (CWS 1912-1929)???? That’s okay … he’s not in my top 4, but I think he deserves some pub. This HoFer was a particularly speedy catcher and a defensive specialist. Here’s my top 4 in no particular order:
– Bench
– Berra
– Campanella
– I-Rod
Piazza just misses because they ran on him, but his offense is really hard to ignore. Fisk & Cochrane just miss as well.
I suspect if it weren’t for the early tragic ending, Thurmon Munson would be in my top 4. As a kid, he was my favorite catcher — hard nosed, a real leader, very clutch with the bat … and he actually looked like my Dad 🙂
Dave – Great list and welcome.. Gotta agree with Chas – as much as I like everyone the site – nice to see some fresh names and new voices.
I actually considered Munson and Carter for my six. Munson was just out of the running.
Chas – I think Campanella also stood for alot more then just his numbers. Sure – Jackie Robinson was the first, but Campanella was right behind him in breaking down the color barrier in Major League Baseball. When I said he would have easily eclipsed Yogi Berra’s marks – I was also including the years he lost to segregation ( 8 years in the Negro Leagues and 2 years in the minors ). Granted he signed in the Negro League at the age of 15, so I don’t count a few of those years and I know it is one of the “should haves” your talking about. Sorry – I didn’t clarify my comment before.
But considering that from the age of 22-26, Berra hit 75 home runs, 371 RBIs and had 540 hits – I think Campanella’s numbers could have – keywords “could have” been similar.
For me – Campanella was one of the best at his position during an historic time and was probably under more public scrutiny than most human being.
Good discussions going on here. Must have killed Scheerskill to list 2 Yankees, even if they are pre-Steinbrenner.
I know that he never played in the major leagues but I feel the need that Josh Gibson should be added to the nomination list. He was recognized by Big Train Johnson as the best catcher of his time both white and black. He is also the best hitter to play in the Negro Leagues all time. Better hitter than every catcher in your nomination!!!!
1. Bench
2. Berra
3. Pudge
4. Fisk
Honorable mention to Campanella, but unfortunately longevity has to count when carving these faces in to stone.
Great call by Gino. Bravo. I was trying to think of someone legit but not mentioned and you stole the perfect addition in my opinion.
Yeah – I am in agreement with Rey. Great nomination by Gino.
Crossword Pete got it right…I did die a thousand deaths when I mentioned those Yankees (Pete knows me well). Ditto on Josh Gibson!!
Off-the-topic…I gotta great trivia question that nobody has ever answered correctly (Montenaro might know this because I think I told him years ago). What player hit the most HRs in his last year and how many did he hit? No peekin’ guys!
So Smitty, then we’re in agreement that “could have been similar” is quite different from “would have easily eclipsed”?
Gino: nice call, yes. Smitty brought up Gibson’s name when we discussed this prior to posting it. We both agreed that our emphasis was on guys who played in the Major Leagues and that, as great as Gibson was, it’s really difficult to add players who never played in the majors to the discussion.
Dave, if you told me I don’t remember. My guess would be the guy whose name so intrigued you because of the letters in it.
Not him!. No other thoughts at this time.
This is a tough call for a position that is at times more about what is done behind the plate than standing next to it. There was never a bigger winner than Berra, Bench’s ten gold gloves are impressive as well as his obvious offensive statistics. I have never seen a catcher quicker behind the plate than Pudge back in the day. He also calls a heck of a game. Longevity is a necessary to achieve greatness, but it doesn’t equal greatness, so Fisk is out of it for me. The assumption that Campanella “would have” done anything is maybe correct, but shouldn’t some in to a conversation when you are discussing what guys actually did. Piazza was a great hitter, but I think at this particular position defense and wins has to outweigh batting. So, for me: Bench, Berra, Rodriguez, and just to thrown a curve ball…a splicing together of all of the Molina brothers.
Muels’ 2 cents:
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Carlton Fisk
Josh Gibson
Also-
Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Jim Sundberg
Muels —
Jim Sundberg is in your top 7? I thought maybe you meant Ryne Sandberg … who was such a good second baseman that he’s also the 7th best catcher of all time, too.
Nice one, Wally. Actually, you do know you set yourself for this one…Craig Biggio was a way better catcher than Ryne Sandberg. 🙂
Thanks Pince and Muels. Of course, you guys aren’t making this any easier to decide the final four…but that’s meant in a good way. Handicapping the field right now…Berra and Bench are looking to be locks. I thought so before this started and everyone’s opinions have pretty much confirmed that. After that, it would seem to me that it’s between I-Rod, Campy and Fisk for the remaining two. Not a lot of support for Piazza out there, nor Carter, and the old guys (Cochrane, Dickey, Hartnett) aren’t getting a ton of love either.
Just want to throw this out there, because it was something I thought of when I made my initial list. If there’s no Cochrane or Dickey, are we too biased towards the last half of the 20th century? Not that I think every era has to be represented, but I think it’s a valid consideration.
The number mentioning Josh Gibson has increased to five. Quite a bit has been written and said about the ‘Black Babe Ruth.’
https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/05/SPGQNIL8UR1.DTL
https://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016050.html
Yes – some of it is legend, but it is difficult to ignore his hitting escapades. He also does have the testimonials of at least two major league pitchers.
I know it was mentioned that it would be difficult to nominate anyone who did not play in the majors. Not quite as difficult as it was for Gibson to be accepted in the majors.
Mules – I did consider Sundberg and his six gold gloves.
Alright, I’ll amend that…it looks like I-Rod should be the third, then it’s between Fisk, Campanella, Gibson, Cochrane and Dickey for the 4th.
Yes, five people have mentioned Gibson, but most of those were people who hadn’t thought of him in the first place, then gave Gino credit for a good call. Yeah, he may have been great, possibly even better than some of the guys I’m ranking ahead of him, but I’m not completely convinced of that. I will say one thing…Sadahara Oh is not making my list of first basemen. Is that analogous? Yes, sort of.
Yeah – me not mentioning Gibson up front – I must have fat-fingered that one. I hate to keep falling back on that excuse, but it is the only one that seems to work in times like this.
Fair enough – I will trade a Josh Gibson place on the Mount for Sadahara.
Isn’t there a u in Oh’s name?
🙂
Yes, it’s Sadaharu Oh. I guess you’re not the only one with fat fingers. 😉
Don’t worry about it, Chas. At least it was a Japanese name you misspelled. Casey is over in his recent post talking about “Ray Hamilton,” the famed UConn guard and Detroit Piston.
So Casey, have we figured out how to change our profile pics yet? My woman keeps telling me that I look scary, or like a convict or something, in that picture that shows with my comments. I thought I was being mysterious–that it was a picture of me that wasn’t that recognizable–but she tells me it’s terrible.
That would be Richard “Rip” (Don’t call me Ray) Hamilton?
I think it is a Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen love-child, the greatest shooting guard in the NBA. Or he just fat-fingered the name.
No mas! No mas!
🙂
Honest to God – I was curious about Sadaharu’s name and feeling a little lazy. I should have googled it.
Fat-fingering is a disease – as contagious as the bubonic plague…
To change a profile pic – go to wordpress.com and enter into your profile there and make the changes. Let me know if you have problems.
“As contagious as the bubonic plague..”
“Ahhh – but curable!”
“Where you going Hamilton? “Ray Hamilton” sit down. ”
“Yo, I don’t get paid to be hypnotized by some 2 bit hypnotist. Rip out”.
https://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1019567/index.htm
Benefit of the doubt is a funny thing. Isn’t it?
It’s as American as hot dogs and apple pie. Heck, it’s somewhat synonymous with – innocent until proven guilty. Maybe our motto should read – life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the benefit of the doubt.
Kinda rolls off the tongue, huh?
So when I look at Ivan Rodriguez and his numbers, I give him the benefit of the doubt. He hit .300 what 9 out of 10 years during the 90s.
Great stuff. Right? No need for the benefit of the doubt…right?
Steroids becomes an issue in the 21st century and suddenly Rodriguez is hitting .285.
Hey he was 35 by that time. He was bound to decline at some point. Right?
He was throwing out runners at a rate of 50% in the 90s. We all fawned over his pop time of 1.67. Strange how Rodriguez had a 20% drop from one season to the next.
That’s all right. I give him the benefit of the doubt. That is after all – the American way.
Funny, we give Ivan Rodriguez the benefit of the doubt. But Josh Gibson? Nah. He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt. Why is that?
You should write an article about that, Casey.
Look, first of all, I was waiting until someone brought up the I-Rod steroid allegations. But, the shoe hasn’t really dropped yet, has it? I’m not saying you have to give him the benefit of the doubt, but apparently all the folks on here who have praised him are willing to.
What benefit of the doubt are we supposed to give Gibson? The benefit of the doubt that, had he played in the majors, he would have been one of the four greatest of all-time? Come on. Are you really considering these to be analogous situations? Why don’t we just give Joe Mauer the benefit of the doubt that he’s going to continue to be the best hitting catcher in baseball, maybe win six more batting titles, eight gold gloves and two MVPs.
If you want Gibson, then you have to give me Mauer. Bench, Berra, Gibson and Mauer. What do you say?
Maybe that was a bit overdone, but Gibson’s benefit of the doubt is that he’s in the Hall of Fame. We don’t have to call him one of the greatest of all-time just because of all the comparisons to Babe Ruth. I need more, and of course, you know I need stats. We have a tough enough time comparing players across eras, let alone comparing players who didn’t face the same competition.
By the way, that article you sent the link to refers to him as John Gibson in the lead sentence. Did you write that Casey?
“Gibson’s benefit of the doubt is that he’s in the Hall of Fame.?” You’ll have to forgive me, but that eerily sounds like 40 acres and a mule.
While we are waiting for ‘the other shoe to drop (which by the way – does anyone think the shoe will drop to the degree that it needs to?), maybe we could put some energy into extracting the shoe that has been lodged in Josh Gibson’s (and any like him) hind parts.
I disagree with analogous situations described above. What was the success rate of players coming from the Negro Leagues as opposed to those coming from Japan? Thanks to our local newspaper I was reminded of Hideki Irabu. He certainly didn’t measure up. His is an extreme case. But he is not the only player coming from the Far East who has been average at best.
If as you say: “We have a tough enough time comparing players across eras, let alone comparing players who didn’t face the same competition.” Maybe then we should avoid these discussions.
It’s your post. Do what you want to do. I want to let you know where I stand.
40 acres and a mule? I’m pretty sure you don’t mean it that way, but that sort of implies that I’m being racist here.
You said: “Funny, we give Ivan Rodriguez the benefit of the doubt. But Josh Gibson? Nah. He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt. Why is that?”
Maybe I should have said: How is Josh Gibson not getting the benefit of the doubt when he’s in the Hall of Fame? It’s not like he hasn’t been honored for what he has done, it’s just that I don’t think he’s one of the four greatest catchers of all-time. You’re letting me know where you stand, and guess what? I’m responding by letting you know where I stand. That’s why we have these discussions.
I said the Japanese thing was sort of analogous, but I agree with you that it would seem to me that Negro League success translated better to the majors than did Japanese League success. But, keep in mind, that we weren’t alive in the 50s as we were in the 90s, so do you think there aren’t examples of good Negro League players who didn’t make it in the majors?
I am not passing judgment. But it sounds like Josh Gibson will take what he is given and like it. You want to call that something else? That’s up to you.
Gee … for once it’s really great to be watching a this type of cat fight from the sidelines. You go, girls!
Chas … great comeback the other day with Biggio! And yes, you need to change that pic of you … looks like a most wanted heinous sex crime offender.
About time we get to debating the other positions on the field, gents?
First of all, I’d have to have some kind of power over Josh Gibson to force him to “…take what he is given and like it”.
Secondly, this is excerpted from one of the articles you linked to earlier (I added the bold for emphasis):
“But while the homer totals of major leaguers are indisputable — Aaron 755, Ruth 714, Bonds 712 and counting — Gibson’s numbers will forever remain murky. He hit as many as 962 homers in his 17-year career, including 84 in 1936. But many of those came against semi-pro competition, as Negro Leagues teams traveled the land facing any opponent they could find, and record-keeping was sketchy at best.
Gibson’s plaque at the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown reflects the uncertainty, declaring he hit ‘almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball.’ Much like Sadaharu Oh, who hit 868 homers in his career in Japan, it is nearly impossible to measure Gibson against the elite power hitters in major-league history.”
Third, I looked in the Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract this morning to see where he ranked him. For the record, he doesn’t just rank players’ careers by total Win Shares, due to the difficulties created by varying degrees of peak value and longevity. James doesn’t list Gibson in his top 100 catchers of all-time, which can only mean he chose to evaluate only players with major league data. There’s probably something about that in the earlier parts of the book, but I didn’t have the time to look for it.
My point isn’t that, just because Bill James chose to exclude him from consideration then we should, but to emphasize that this is a guy who wrote an entire book ranking the top 100 of all-time at each position and, for whatever reason, even he finds it prohibitively difficult.
I had a moment earlier today when I thought that maybe Gibson should be our fourth, but I’m not ready to make that leap. I will say, though, that he’s moved up on my list throughout this discussion, and would definitely be in the top 10 (that benefit of the doubt I’ll give him). Also, Pudge Rodriguez would not be in my top 4 if it was entirely up to me, but I like the fact that the final choices will be shaped by the discussion on here.
Lastly, after all the discussion, anyone who wants to comment with a final top 4, revised or otherwise, please feel free to throw it out there…no explanation or justification necessary. I’m just curious if and how your opinions have been influenced by this conversation.
I hope we didn’t scare everyone off. Smitty and I are working on our short lists of first basemen (and finalizing the catchers, of course). I hope that discussion will be as interesting as this one.
Certainly not me. I just don’t know enough about catchers to comment. I was going to nominate Sandy Alomar Jr. because he did, afterall, win an All-Star MVP. But I thought he might be just be on the cusp and not quite in with the rest of these guys 🙂