I’m gonna re-open an old bottle of beer here. It’s been talked about before, usually while ND football is hitting the depths of its existence … like after Ty’s 3rd season and right now during the embarrassing Weis Era. The simple question is this: Should Notre Dame football join the rest of Fighting Irish sports and become part of the Big East Conference? Or should ND football remain independent? It should be pointed out that the Big East marriage has been quite good for ND when you look at everything EXCEPT football. ND’s basketball, baseball and soccer programs for men and women, plus a variety of other varsity programs have never been as successful as they have during this 13 year run as members of the Big East. (The #1 ranked hockey team plays in the CCHA). So why isn’t Fighting Irish football a member of the Big East (BE)?
The argument against joining the BE:
· Will actually have to share certain revenues with other conference members
· Possibly may not be allowed to have separate NBC TV package – or would be forced to share revenue from that
· Makes ND a “regional program” instead of a “national program” – hurts recruiting, scheduling, traditional rivalries and prestige
· The Big East is not a prestigious football conference … it’s second tier.
The argument supporting affiliation with the BE:
· There’s a number of ways to get the same amount of money if you’re going to be a mediocre program. Conference affiliation assures you’ll get some during the down years. Your upside is limited, but so is your downside. Independent status really only makes sense if ND is a true power … a perennial Top 10 program.
· The BE would be so hungry to attract ND football, they would probably make exceptions for ND to keep exclusive TV deals
· Hard to refute the regionalization argument, BUT this can be mitigated through scheduling smartly (more on this later)
· That’s true, the BE is not currently a prestigious football conference, but it would become more so if ND joined.
· Because it’s not a great conference, this greatly increases ND’s chances of gaining a BCS bid … or being slotted into a decent game if finishing 2nd/3rd.
· Conference membership gives you something to shoot for (e.g. the conference championship) if one or two of your other big games goes awry (e.g. a loss to USC).
Those opposing a union with the BE would say that joining the conference is essentially admitting defeat … admitting that ND is no longer a “special program”. Well … yes … those days are over until proven otherwise. Right now, we suck (in football)! Still, the ND “brand” can be leveraged and the football program can become a solid perennial Top 10 unit IF they can get someone who can recruit like Weis and coach like Parseghian. (Actually, Holtz did both quite well). But let’s admit it … the days of 3 titles in 12 years are OVER. As a first step, we need to get to a place where we have a good shot of being in a BCS bowl 2 out of 3 years. It’s staying in the spotlight on New Year’s Day that keeps that recruiting engine and positive momentum going. Heck … Cincinnati went 11-2 and is going to represent the Big East this year in the Orange Bowl at prime time on New Year’s Day. I say, give me some of that at least every other year and I can build a sustainable, consistent, excellent program.
I know it sounds like I’m a big supporter of ND joining the BE. What I’d like is for someone to tell me why I’m barking up the wrong tree. Tell me what’s wrong with this arrangement:
· ND football becomes a full-fledged member of the BE, but negotiates full rights to retain exclusive NBC deal and corresponding revenues. Obviously, bowl game revenues get shared among all conference members.
· ND’s 12 game schedule now includes eight Big East games (Cinci, Pitt, W. Va, Rutgers, UConn, Syracuse, So FLA and L’ville) plus the following annual non-conference tilts: USC, Michigan, Navy/Purdue and some team in the Pac 10 or Big 12 that we have a home and home with.
· Given ND’s talent advantage, even with a crappy coach, they should consistently go 6-2 or better in the conference each year. 7-1 is a slam dunk trip to a BCS bowl. ND still has 3-4 high profile national games every year. Note: Cinci (Orange Bowl) was 6-1 in conference this year, Pitt (Sun Bowl) and WVU were each 5-2 in BE play.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assert that a BE affiliation would actually help ND football get back on its feet and on the path to being healthy, wealthy and successful ON THE FIELD. Appreciate the panel’s thoughts on this.
The BE has been very good to ND, especially in BB, but as you noted in soccer as well. And it is pretty much a one way benefit, because ND has not helped those BE sports, especially BB. But for football to join the BE would indeed be admitting defeat. Granted we are not a current top 10 program, but joining the BE would be “selling out” to that fact and dooming ND to mediocrity. While it is true that we wallow in mediocrity right now, if we are to be a phoenix and rise from the ashes, we must maintain the independent status. Alas, BE affiliation may not occur on paper, but look at ND’s schedule format and games in upcoming years and it is easy to see that there is an ever-increasing BE flavor and a lessening of the national tendency except for some of those long-standing rivalries like USC and Michigan. BC and Stanford are probably on their way out, and Purdue and MSU may eventually get replaced by BE teams. If that happens ND will doom itself to NEVER again being the ND that we all came to love. We’ll be just another mid-major team, regardless of how the BCS sees us. And yes, I know the BE is a major conf in football, but they don’t act it. I say: NO BE!
Wally,
Out of curiosity – what was the label on the beer? 🙂
Wally
For ND to join any conference they would have to take a (real or perceived) step down off of their perch to “stoop” to the levels of the mere mortal programs. They will cease to be the Notre Dame that I can still remember and associate the current teams with. It may be totally emotional or sentimental, but ND basketball is good, but not the same mystique as Digger’s teams of my youth. It will be a mistake for them to take this route…
It was Old Style, Casey.
Muels — yes … a step down off their perch. ND football doesn’t deserve a perch anymore. I think they need to actually earn some respect by succeeding in the same environment as the “mere mortal programs”. Note: many of Digger’s teams of the 70’s and 80’s actually had significant talent … NBA talent … up and down the roster. Plus Digger was special … a good coach with charisma. Like Holtz was in football.
Oh … I forgot to mention this … ESPN reported that Urban Meyer just recently again confirmed the ND was his “dream job”. Hmmmm. Hope Jack Swarbrick is taking notes!
Which conference was West Virginia a part of when they played in the ’89 Fiesta Bowl?
Pretty sure WVU was an independent in 1989. Urban Meyer said 4 years ago that ND was his dream job. Still opted for Fla. National championship caliber year after year was a bigger dream! Put the BE question to my son, like me an alum. Unprompted he responded much as I did; rather be lousy as ND football than change who we are in an attempt to LOOK good!
WVU was indeed independent in the 1988 season. Major Harris; whatever happened to him, Casey?
OK, Pete & gang. “Who we are” is a crappy, incompetent, and independent football team. Have been for at least a decade. Let me know when you can’t stand the fun much longer.
Not only am I nervous about beating Hawaii … I’m really nervous about ND embarrassing itself once again in front of a national TV audience with a display of sheer incompetence. Hope and pray this doesn’t happen, but SEVERAL data points do indeed indicate a trend.
Pete
Major Harris, IM Hipp, Tommy Frazier – where did they go?
They went to the same place Tony Rice went … the graveyard for great college QBs who are not prototypical NFL drop back passers. Although Harris was the closest of this bunch to meeting that description. I bet a few of them tried to play in the CFL.
Casey — how do I fix my photo/avatar? I went to my Dashboard to edit my profile and the photo/avatar was not even a choice I could make.
An outsider’s perspective –
While I realize the temptation to jump to the Big East is great, it is just that – a temptation.
Recent comments that I have heard about Boise St, is that in order for them to become a national power, they need a new conference. I realize the Big East is more prominent than the WAC, but it is as you, Wally, have referred the Big Least – at least when it comes to football.
“I can resist all things but temptation.”
Well, I guess the simple solution (in concept, evidently not in practice) is to secure great coaching and start winning 10 games per year consistently. Sure, you can do that a retain independence. Of course, mid way through this season, we thought we might be on that 10 win/yr path starting in ’09.
One thing about conference affiliation … whether it’s the Big Least, Big 10, etc is that if you stumble in a game early on, you still have the conference title to keep you going. I’ve see too many talented ND teams … yes during the Holtz Era … drop a game early and then go into a 2-3 game slide and totally ruin the season. That’s because we were toast after one loss, definitely with two. Our motivation was hard to recover after that first loss.
W/r/t Boise State, aside from maybe forcing their way into the Big 12 North, if they stay in the WAC, what they need to do is add another touch non-conference game to their slate. This year they went into Oregon and beat the Ducks …. if they also went into Colorado and beat them this year, they would certainly be in the Top 4 if still undefeated. It’s risky and not necessarily fair, but the BSUs of the world need to take more risks with their non-conference schedule. Better yet, go east and play Pitt or WVU … get some pub from the east coast media.
Yeah – I was going to bring up the coaching aspect. We probably would not be having this conversation if Urban Meyer or Nick Saban (I am not suggesting Saban is a possibility) were at the helm. I hate saying that because I had faith in Charlie.
I did, too. Charlie fooled a lot of us!
Wally, I should probably already be tired of the sad state of ND football, but I do cling to the ND tradition. I too am worried about tomorrow in Hawaii. I said to a Mich friend weeks ago that at least Michigan was done after the regular season; ND still had to go out and embarrass itself one more time! Why do I cling to tradition?????? Charlie certainly fooled me. So did Losingham in that first glorious year, though I remember scratching my head when I realized that he totally misplayed the green jersey thing vs BC. Should have known then, should have known sooner on Charlie. Oh well, at least I know why I’m not coach – too slow on the uptake!
Guess I had no reason to be afraid of Hawai’i or bowl game appearances. Maybe that’s why I should never get into criticizing coaches – I just don’t know much.