Three teams within 6 points, and all received first place votes. LSU, Alabama, and Oklahoma were all very impressive, and the fighting Kellen Moore’s continue to dismantle opposing defenses. Oklahoma State is benefiting from Calvin Johnson like domination from Justin Blackmon. South Carolina is hanging in there, but if the Lattimore injury is as bad as feared, they figure to be exiting our poll shortly. Michigan State gains the respect of pine members with a nice W over “Shoelace” and the Wolverines. Andrew Luck has Stanford lurking like a good Derby horse: content to let other teams set the pace, but a squad that will be in the running for the final stretch. LSU has held on as our number one team, but there is very little room separating the Tigers from the Crimison Tide and the Sooners. The question has been raised … where do we stand on USC? Eligible in our poll or will they have to wait for 2012 to debut?
| Teams | Points |
| LSU (4) | 115 |
| Alabama (2) | 111 |
| Oklahoma (2) | 107 |
| Boise State | 88 |
| Wisconsin | 87 |
| Oklahoma State | 83 |
| Stanford | 73 |
| Clemson | 72 |
| Oregon | 48 |
| Arkansas | 42 |
| Kansas State | 41 |
| South Carolina | 23 |
| Michigan State | 18 |
| West Virgina | 15 |
| Nebraska | 11 |
Wisconsin over Oklahoma State? That’s awfully surprising to me. Not saying its wrong, but just surprising.
And I personally didn’t vote for South Carolina because I don’t think they’ve been very good WITH Lattimore and I think they’re going to really struggle without him.
As for USC, I think we should let them in the poll, if they keep winning. A win over ND would be giant for them.
Also, I know MSU got handled by a currently unranked Notre Dame team but am I the only one who is surprised with how low they are in the BCS/AP/Coaches rankings? I feel like they are a nobrainer Top 15, yet pretty much every other poll has them as a fringe Top 15 team.
Biggest games next week look to be: Wisconsin/MSU, ND/USC, Stanford/UW, LSU/Auburn. Thoughts, boys?
Drew –
I was riding the Lattimore bandwagon, but I didn’t rank them either, as they won’t be able to handle that kind of set back. Wiscy and OK State seems like a matter of preference for me, a coin flip given the week. Both teams are legit national championship contenders, and with OK State having the best play maker, maybe they are more prepared for a title run (although I ranked Wisconsin higher). I’m with ya on MSU, they are legit and should begin being recognized as such. They will get their due should they keep winning, as we have seen a late season surge means more than an early season loss. Maybe I am bias to Cheesehead football, but i think Wisconsin/MSU is the game of the week. LSU/Auburn should also be a great one. LSU’s quarterback situation may come back to bite them sooner or later, but for now Miles continues to push all the right buttons
Yeah, I just think OK State’s two wins over ranked teams and playing in a better conference vaults them above of Wisconsin. You can actually argue that Boise has played a tougher schedule than Wisconsin so far. I love Wisconsin this year, but OK State has the 6th toughest SOS so far this year, Wisconsin is 60 spots behind them. Wisconsin/Michigan State will tell alot about just how good Wisconsin is. The SOS for the undefeated teams goes like this, kind of a surprising list:
Oklahoma-3
Alabama-33
LSU-16
Boise-74
Wisconsin-66
OK State-6
Stanford-46
Clemson-29
Houston-114
KState- 8
Knowing this may cause me to significantly change my rankings next week.
I said 2 polls ago that ND is one win away from cracking my top 15. After an idle week that win comes on Saturday vs a respectable USuC team.
MSU is suffering backlash from losing to a then-winless ND team. It’s hard to overlook that loss for many pollsters even given their top 5 defense. But as ND climbs, so too will MSU.
Through week 7 S Carolina has shown to be worthy of a top 15 spot in my poll. In week 8, when they are actually Lattimore-less I will judge them as such, but not until then. Let the Oregon Ducks be a lesson to us all in that regard.
The SOS rankings are intriguing to say the least.
I agree with Pete. SOS is intriguing. CFB and college basketball are the proverbial apples and oranges, but the lessons taught by Butler the last couple of years bring caution to SOS. People didn’t think much of Butler’s opponents UNTIL the Bulldogs advanced to the title. Then, some people were wondering if those Horizon League teams that beat Butler were better than they thought.
How does that apply to CFB? Not sure, but Pete makes a good point. If ND beats USC, Michigan State’s SOS looks better. Which in turn makes the Big Ten look better.
SOS can be a tricky gauge during the season.
Yeah guys, I don’t get evaluating a team based on perceived future performance. Judge them on what they’ve done and let the future take care of itself.
Casey, how do you separate two 7-0 teams if you don’t consider how tough their schedule has been?
I still think that we are now into the meat of everyone’s schedules that now brings the cream to the top and the rest – well to the bottom. Stealing a line from Dick Vitale, but Cupcake City is over. Oklahoma is not playing Ball State again this year, and I think we are going to find out what some of these teams are made of.
Sure SOS is important – for Wisconsin they beat down Nebraska pretty impressively. Is that a reflection of Nebraska being that bad or Wisconsin being that good? I am with Pete on Notre Dame. They beat USC on Saturday and I am starting to look at them in a different light.
I thought S. Carolina was a good team when they dropped Garcia. Now they lose Lattimore. They still have a pretty impressive defense, but is that enough to win games? Probably not. But until they start to lose those games, they should be right where they there. In fact, if they keep winning, it would be more proof for me that they should be right where they are.
Drew, I agree with you on Oklahoma State, but I didn’t think they were impressive in their win over Texas and the Longhorns were coming off a pretty nasty beatdown by the Cowboys’ inter-state rival. I think if they keep winning – their schedule will get them to the top.
I take SOS into consideration, but don’t swallow it whole. It’s computer driven, and like Pete has said in other discussions – you get out what you put in. What might look like a strength now can be a weakness later and vice versa.
Casey, that’s sounds pretty close to what I would say about SOS. It’s definitely a moving target, but that’s kind of the nature of college football. If LSU all of a sudden lost 3 of their last 4 games, where would Oregon’s “our only loss was to the best team in the country” argument be?
I glance at SOS, but am more interested in looking at the individual wins that make up a team’s schedule. I guess my point is more that I look at a team’s strength of schedule, but not necessarily the SOS number. In fact, I’d have to take a closer look, but I’m a little surprised that Kansas State has played the “third toughest schedule” among undefeated teams.
Yeah – if SOS dictated then Oklahoma would be #1. Ok State #2 and K-State #3.
Like Smitty said, Okie State’s win over Texas was not that impressive.
Here’s a dumb question:
SOS takes into consideration only the team’s schedule-to-date, right? It’s not looking at the totality of their schedule, including games they haven’t played yet, right?
Not a dumb question at all. I have often wondered the same thing. My guess is that SOS represents the schedule to date.
Either way – it is, as you say, a moving target.
Pete: Not sure if you’re saying this, but do you have Notre Dame as the best 2-loss team in the country? Over Texas A&M, Auburn and Georgia?
When they beat USuC I do. A win over USuC will solidify that they are not the team that lost 2 games at the beginning as much as they are the team that has won 5 straight over some good competition. Those other teams are good 2-loss teams, but I would look at consistency in this situation. ND has turned the corner, whereas those other teams are less consistent.
SOS is definitely based on currency. Best example would be OU’s win over FSU which no longer gives them as much SOS as it did when it first happened.
You know a person, especially an athlete, has made it when his name gets turned into a verb or adjective. Calvin Johnson – Welcome to the Nation of Domination in sports. His name being used to describe another receiver’s name? That’s studly right there.
I am not a big fan of SOS because, as pointed out before, I think it is inadvertent BCS propaganda. So Wisconsin has not played as difficult of teams as OK State or Stanford. I still think they can be evaluated (to some degree objectively) on their performances in those games. They haven’t struggled in any of those games and they’ve looked completely dominant offensively. Their schedule will eventually “even out” I’m assuming with MSU and other Big 10 opponents. I get its place in the current system, though.
And then, of course, there are times where a SOS ranking turns out to be a predicable measure, such as Hawaii getting demolished by Georgia (was it?) when they had that QB and went undefeated.
I’m not so sure on MSU yet. I didn’t have them in my top-15. I’m thinking Michigan was not that good. Shoelace is not a headsy quarterback and I didn’t see the game, but I’m assuming he didn’t have quite the explosive game as he usually does. Kind of saw them as pretenders. So that leaves Sparty’s only loss to Notre Dame??? Sorry, Pete, but Notre Dame will have to do reeeally well against USC to even crack my top-25.
With A&M, I think it has more to do with where the tough opponents fell in their schedule. They’ve lost two close games to top 10 teams, but have also won decisively over a couple good teams (SMU, Baylor) and on the road vs. another (Texas Tech).
A&M is probably the best 2 loss team in the nation. They are nearly in my top 15 right now. When ND cracks that elite group next week, they will not go ahead of A&M unless the Aggies become a 3-loss team. As to Aub and UGA; too inconsistent for me to respect them.
An interesting SOS development is how that stat is changing for teams with K State on their schedule. Wasn’t K State picked last in their divison of the Big XII?
Rey, regarding ND and “top whatever”. This is where our philosophies become so different (and why I like human polls vs computer polls). With a win over USuC ND will establish (in MY mind) that RIGHT NOW they are among the 15 best teams in the country. Their record might not warrant that ranking, but their current play does. That is as opposed to say Houston, who has not yet proven that they are worthy (in my mind) of such consideration despite their gaudy record.
Pete: I agree that there are a lot of teams better than Houston at 6-0, which, somewhat ironically, is pretty obvious when you look at their strength of schedule. The fact of the matter is, they haven’t played anybody.
But, I don’t really get where you’re coming from when you insist that computer polls automatically overrate undefeated teams. Houston is 20th, 21st and 22nd in the human polls. Their average computer poll ranking (among the six BCS uses) is 16th. So yeah, it bumps them up a little. But there are only 10 unbeaten teams in the country, so that still puts them a half dozen teams with losses.
The computer polls take SOS and margin of victory (although I suspect that factor is overstated) into consideration, just as a human considers who a team has beaten and how impressive they’ve looked doing it. But, the computers attempt to do so without bias.
Again, I’m not advocating for blindly accepting what the computer polls have to say, but I think your biases against them are a little unfounded.
Pete – We are different a little in that respect. You’re looking at where that team is currently, consistency, etc. I have a really hard time forgetting what has already been done, which in many ways is wrong. And sometimes there is a disassociative (That’s a word, right? Like “irregardless” and “normalcy” and the infamous Bushism “strategery” or “misremember”) element to that. I had a kidney stone several years ago and for those of you who haven’t had one, you’re fortunate. Anyway, as if a kidney stone isn’t bad enough, it got stuck in my urinary tract which explained why it wouldn’t pass for many days. Long story short, before I realized it was a kidney stone, I associated that horrible pain with the Chinese food I ate the day before. Now I can’t eat Chinese food because my mind always thinks of that pain though they have nothing to do with one another. A human poll will always have the human elements and its own flaws. My flaw is that I can’t disconnect with what has already happened. Notre Dame looked inept in their first two games and I can’t just get past that right now until further proof.
Chas, I do have an irrational dislike for computer polls. It’s only “founding” (Rey’s not the ONLY one who can make up words!) is in my head/heart. Your Houston example clearly shows the faultiness in my “reasoning” (in parentheses since when do I ever reason?). I have stated in the past that undefeated teams will have an advantage in computer polls and in Houston’s case that is clearly not so. I think I struggle to put my finger on my reasons for disliking the computer polls, but SOS asa STAT may be closer than the undefeated advantage. Human pollsters certainly take into account who a team has played, but they also take into account how well the team has done against whomever they have played. And I guess my real issue with the computers is not their inaccuracy or inhumaness (is that a word?) but the bias which programmers use to “develop” their ranking. If we have to be susceptible to that kind of human bias, then why play “pretend” with the computers? Just let the biased humans do the ranking? Remember, these are just the rantings of a crotchety old man who can’t progress with the times!
Rey, I have had kidney stones. One of the worst pains I have ever endured – no way to relieve it until the stone moves – BUT, no way bad enough to make me dislike ANY food! In other words, I am oblivious to most common sense associations!
Just another SOS thought; in this day of parity and mid-major surge, what does an SOS of 3 mean compared to an SOS of 33 or 73?
Two wins for the Irish (USC and then Navy) should get them back in the discussion.Not that Navy is doing well this year, but an emotional victory over USC followed up with a taking-care-business win could show that the Irish are top 25.
Did Notre Dame really look inept in the first 2 games? If Kelly had started Rees from the very start and Notre Dame held Michigan on that last drive ( instead of being the second parting of the Red Sea) – we could be looking at an undefeated Irish team. I know that is a couple of “ifs”, but was that really a team that was inept?
Rey – I do understand where you are coming from. Never had kidney stones, but the last time I jumped into a body of water ( lake or pool), I dislocated my shoulder again. That is a pain that I never wish on anyone . But I won’t jump in now because I associate that pain with any body of water.
I think there is a major weakness with the computer systems in that it does give weight to the margin of victory. I know some schools have admitted to scheduling teams so they can bad that margin in those games. Kinda like Oklahoma scheduling Ball State and throwing a 60 or 70 spot on the board. Really? Should that game carry as much weight as a conference game? I hope not. In fact I think it should hurt a team if they beat someone by that much. I also think a human poll takes that into account.
I am picking on Oklahoma here a little, but they beat Ball State and they beat Texas by a lot. I sure how the computer has that Texas game carrying more weight than the Ball State game, because it should.
Alright fellas I am with you. I am voting for yours truly. Okay, a O’ Brother Where Art Thou joke, but I agree on Notre Dame. A victory of USC and I think they are back in the discussion for the Top 15.
Great discussion boys. Let me just clear up my reasoning for posting SOS. I think it is interesting to see where teams are at THUS far. Really, strength of schedule shouldn’t mean anything until the end of the season.
Hypothetically, if an SEC team had a weak non conf schedule and then beat Vandy, Ole Miss and Miss State we would say “Yeah, they’re undefeated but who have they beat?” That teams SOS would be very low(in the rankings). But if they beat Alabama, LSU and Arkansas to end the season, their SOS would obviously improve along with the public perception of them.
So, SOS is just a what have you done for me so far gauge, as opposed to a what can you potentially do for me. Wisconsin has three, maybe four ranked opponents left on their schedule so their SOS will obviously rise.
,
I was primarily using it to point out one of a few reasons why I believe OK State to be superior to Wisconsin THUS FAR. Also, I thought it was interesting KState had such a high ranking SOS.
One thing I think(or hope) we can all agree on is that much of this debate wouldn’t quite be necessary if we just had a playoff instead of this damn BCS. I know that most people would agree that: Alabama, LSU, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Oklahoma State, Boise State and Stanford are 7 of the best 8 teams in college football. Is KState or Houston or Clemson on that list? Maybe. We have the rest of the season to see. Let’s enjoy it.
Drew – Amen brother (on the convo and the playoffs)
Smitty – Inept was quite hyperbolic, but that’s the way I roll. Kind of like the time I scored 35 points and hit that buzzer beater on JV. Remember? I was waiting for someone to call me out on that because they did rack up 500 some-odd yards of offense. I guess I should have said Red Zone ineptitude.
In this day and age, aside from Pete’s antiquated ideals (I kid), I definitely see the value in SOS because of the lack of the playoff system.
But here’s something else no one has considered or at least brought up yet. Football, to me, seems like the one sport where style of play can greatly impact outcomes. The spread seems to never work in the SEC (ahem, Oregon). Maybe because they’ve seen it so much, maybe because they are so speedy on defense. But you can have one team in football dominate one week, then turn around and have them do ho-hum against a mediocre team. Maybe this is more HS football, but just more reason why it needs to be played on the field. It’s like a solid wing-T team in HS. They are in every game it seems like.
Rey…I remember that 35 pt game and buzzer beater. It was against Olympia right? I am waiting for Chris to jump in here. 🙂
I agree with your point on different styles in football and I think you can say the same thing about college basketball. How many times do you see Big East teams that play a physical style, take an early exit in the tournament.
I am not sure if it is the nature of college sports where they are constantly changing their personnel. The NFL is a copycat league. Baseball – you better have pitching or you aren’t going very far. So I think there are constants for each sport. You are hitting on a major one for college sports.
Gotta agree with Drew and Rey. This is a fantastic conversation!
Hmmm…I thought it was Rey’s 35-point outburst against Fairport.
Great discussion. Wish there was a way we could implement our rankings and make a playoff system. Anything can happen in a playoff, but I think my favorite as of today would be Bama; simply to solid defensively.
Any ideas of how we can make a playoff happen? Obviously the games won’t be played, but if we have our own poll, we should have the right to declare our own (and far more legitimate than the BCS computers) champion.
Smitty and Casey – lowest blow ever. I hate you both.
We did a playoff before and it was fun
Rey? What? I was serious. You threw in 35 versus the Red Raiders right? I remember you coming off the floor and mumbling something about this being too easy.
Yes. Playoff. We can do it again.
We will need a 16th team
I believe a teams SOS is determined by the success/failure of ALL their opponents, even those they have yet to play. I just sense that some of you are thinking it is only based on the games that have been played. All that is gathered from games that have been played is team record. Have you seen K State’s upcoming schedule? Their “breather” is Kansas, but arch rivals are NEVER breathers. Then they face: OU, Ok St, A&M, & Tex, before closing with Iowa St. Right now they deserve the #3 spot in SOS. And their SOS is likely to stay high, but their record will probably falter.
Casey, for the final poll Kyle can just give us #16 too.
Wow! I just noticed that I got “Insight of the Week!’ Not bad for an old guy! And definitely a feel-good moment in such a stimulating conversation!
Yea, a 16th team wouldn’t be an issue. There are always a few teams that don’t receive enough votes to crack the top 15. For the final poll, i’ll give the top 16 point getters