Loyal readers here is your chance to start the discussion. Pick a topic, any topic. It’s Open Thread Thursday on the Pine.
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Crashsays
Last night was the greatest finish to a regular season in baseball history…As those 3 games unfolded live it reminded me why baseball is the greatest game on earth…I pretty much walked away from baseball after they struck the World Series in 1994 but last night was special ! What made it most memorable was the way the Red Sox lost and the Rays won ! Who cares about the Braves. Kershaw gets Cy Young and Kemp MVP ! 2 bright spots in the Dodgers nightmare !
Crashsays
The Boy Wonder, Theo Epstein, looked bumfuzzled last night after the collapse…
It was an epic September meltdown and I loved it, especially watching the reaction of Red Sox Nation whatever THAT is ! They’re cryin’ in their chowder today ! Ha !
Gotta go “pahk the cah for a quahta ! Translated, “park the car for a quarter” Why can’t they just say it like that ? Boston Sucks !
🙂
1. Not everyone in Red Sox Nation is crying. September exposed a serious problem with team that I am surprised wasn’t exposed sooner. You can’t have 3 good starters and then hope you can plug the other 2. When Buchholz went down, the Sox were in trouble.
2. Not everyone in Boston speaks that way. But if you must perpetuate a tired and old stereotype – it is chowdah and quatah. At least get it right.
Smitty’s right that not everyone in Boston speaks that way. That is, the transplants don’t. The stereotype is tired and old, alright. I’m tired of listening to the old folks in Boston abuse the English language.
I’m pretty sure that old folks in Boston do not have a corner on the market when it comes to accents and dialect. I have been in a few NYC conversations where my comprehension was delayed because I needed to repeat the words in order to understand. Texans have their own way of speaking. Rey could probably speak about Philly. Throw the entire South in the mix for that matter.
Crashsays
Smitty, I believe I’ve got it right.It’s chowder and quarter.$350 million spent in the past 2 years and not even a playoff appearance. PRICELESS !
Chas – I agree with Casey. Mariano doesn’t blow that game last night like Papelbon did. You throw a 96 mph fastball in the same spot over and over – it is going to hit. I think it is why the Sox won’t try to re-sign him and will go with Bard. Bard has 2 pitches.
Also..the Yanks lineup was pretty tough and could cover up bad starts by their pitching. The Sox could too, but when hitters started going down like Youkilis -it started getting exposed. Jed Lowrie hitting clean up is a problem.
Sure Sox payroll is high. But I will take being in the playoff race right up until the last game of the season over the state of the Mets, Dodgers and Cubs – any day of the week.
I do think the Sox have a tough decision ahead of them with Youkilis. He has not been healthy the last 2 years and at 3B – I question if he can last. Considering the investment they just made in Adrian Gonzalez – do they make a move?
I don’t think Youkilis and Papi are both back next year.
Behsays
Yankees pitching was suspect all year and they had numerous injuries as well…let’s not make excuses for the Sox meltdown!
Crashsays
Smitty,
You’re right about the state of the Dodgers…What a shame ! All caused by some named Frank McCourt from BOSTON ! Figures…
Papi and Youkilis ? Who cares ? How old are they anyway, 50 ? Papelbon’s post gamer was classic as was Francona’s exit from the dugout !
Wallysays
Smitty’s right … it sucks when your team is essentially eliminated by June. Cub fans seem to face this every 2 or 3 years. This was one of them.
But Crash is right, too …. losing out to the “mega-tiny” payroll of the Rays is EMBARRASSING, injuries notwithstanding. Don’t the Bosox have anything in the minors that coulda helped avoid their historical collapse? Or do they not have much there since they’re spending soooooo much on the big league squad? Either way … OUCH.
Smitty …. next year … you say no Yuke, no Papi, no Papelbon …. who could possibly fill their shoes???
Oh, by the way, if Boston wants to release GM Theo Epstein, the Cubs will gladly accept him. Even if he isn’t the “Boy Wonder” anymore, he’s certainly not the dinosaur-type the Cubs have had in that past.
Wallysays
In case you didn’t notice, Crash simply despises the entire city of Boston and the New England region in general. His “poor attitude” toward the sports teams in the region primarily stems from what appears to be an inferiority complex stemming from the number of Celtics NBA titles compared to the Lakers. (Are the Celtics up by one in that count, Crash?).
Anyway, I felt the need to explain my friend’s tendancies … we’ve sent him to therapy, but obviously it has failed.
Wasn’t trying to make excuses. Trying to give credit where it is due. Saying Rivera is great seems to be an understatement, but how else does one describe him.
No way around it – the Sox stunk up the joint for the last month. Many will look to find a scapegoat, but like Wally said, there will be organizations lined up to sign a guy like Epstein.
Lesson learned though is money can not buy chemistry. Yankee fans can appreciate that. You bring in guys like Crawford and Gonzalez and yeah their numbers look great. But how does that transfer? Gonzalez obviously helped the cause, but Crawford didn’t. How would one know that from the stats.
Agree with the last couple of things Casey said. Maddon for manager of the year and chemistry is important, albeit elusive. I don’t think what happened to the Red Sox in September is entirely due to chemistry, but it was probably a factor. Injuries, of course, were part of it too, but mostly their collapse was just one of those things that isn’t entirely explainable. They were the best team in baseball for four months and among the worst for two.
But Smitty, going into the season, the Red Sox clearly had a better rotation on paper than the Yankees, so to say you can’t have three good starters then try to plug the other two is just looking back in hindsight. When this season started, was there a better #4 and #5 in baseball than Lackey and Dice-K? Maybe in Philadelphia, although at the time that didn’t include Vance Worley, but that’s about it.
[Note: I know Lackey started game 2 and Beckett game 4, but clearly the pecking order was more like: Lester-Beckett-Buchholz, Lackey, Dice-K]
Obviously, Lackey has fallen far short of expectations, but you had to be expecting a little bounce back from him this year. Instead, he regressed. Dice-K at #5? I would have signed up for that.
No excuses here either. I have thought there was problems with this team all year that were waiting to manifest. The Sox have been terrible the last month and it was tough to watch.
Wally…complete speculation on my part about those 3. I do think that Bard could step in for Papelbon. As for Papi and Youkilis..one will be back..My guess is that Youkilis will be one who is back because he can DH; play 3B and spell at first. I think you are going to see them add a few right handed bats as this lineup is loaded with lefties.
But Tampa did a heck of a job and deserves to be in the postseason.
Chas…In March the Sox rotation did look pretty good. But Lackey was inconsistent from the start, Dice K barely pitched and Bucholtz pitched in pain for most of the season and then was done. So what looked good in March, was in trouble by June.
The Sox have been very good in past years with plugging holes and still winning. Worked for a little bit, but in the end – it caught up with them.
Crashsays
First of all Wally thanks for “explaining my tendancies” but next time you feel the need, please don’t ! However you are correct…The Smellticks have 17 Championships and the Lakers 16…2 of them in the past 25 years and the other 2 in the past 30 ! Get out of the 60’s Boston basketball fans…That was 50 yeras ago for Crissakes ! As for coaching…Phil Jackson 11 rings 6 with your Bulls Wally and 5 with the Lakers…Red Auerbach 9 and the last one almost 40 years ago…Lastly for the record, I love clam chowder…Manhattan NOT New England !
Great stat Chas but it doesn’t change my mind that I think he is a one pitch pony and he didn’t come through in biggest save opportunity of the season.
From that stat – how many of those save chances were when they were leading by one run? How many of those with inherited runners? Just curious. I think that stat is misleading as I think Rivera is the best closer and that stat doesn’t show it.
DREWsays
I wouldn’t call Rivera the best closer over the course of a 162 game regular season, that varies greatly from year to year. However, I think most would agree he is the closer you would want most in October/November.
Drew, why did you have to qualify that by saying you’re a Phillies fan? It’s not like you were going to suggest Brad Lidge is better. 😉
Wallysays
Gentlemen … gentlemen. Let’s pause here and take a step back. Rarely am I the calming voice of reason, but let me give it a try.
Now Smitty, not to pick on you, but you wrote “Great stat Chas but it doesn’t change my mind that I think he (Papelbon) is a one pitch pony and he didn’t come through in biggest save opportunity of the season.” First of all, Rivera is a “one pitch pony” and he’s gonna ride that to the HoF. (But that cutter is one special pitch, huh?) Secondly, Rivera is the GREATEST reliever of all time … don’t think anyone can dispute that … BUT, don’t we all remember several Arizona D-backs rounding the bases in the 9th inning of the deciding game of a WS win vs the Yankmees while Rivera was on the mound? The point here is that even the greatest will fail at times, and in this case, Rivera failed on the biggest stage of all.
So … yes, Papelbon blew the save last night in an extremely important game. But he got the save the night before which was the “most important game of the year” at that point. Which most important game of the year do you want to pick?
Papelbon had a great save % this year and ya gotta respect that. BUT … maybe he’s tailing off and starting to show wear? It happens quickly with most closers. Quite telling is his 2.94 ERA … that’s not very good for a closer … the elite closers in given year should be lower than 2.25 or so. So Smitty, you are probably right that Boston should consider letting him go … due to mileage.
What was Boston’s record in September for Lester’s and Beckett’s combined starts? That is as much to blame for their swoon as anything … possibly the biggest reason of all.
I look for the WhiteSox to sign Big Papi … and then I’m sure he’ll turn into Adam Dunn 🙂
Wallysays
Chas … you’ve probably got Crash and I pegged about right, but i’d tweak it a little and say Crash is “much rougher around the edges”. Crash, would you agree? 😉
Wally…yeah Mariano throws a cutter but he is able use it so many different ways – to me he has more than one pitch.
Sure Papelbon got the save the night before, but he struggled doing it. I have never been a huge fan of him so maybe that gets in the way. I think he throws a very straight 96 fastball and tries to blow it by everyone. I think it catches up to him. For a guy that wants $12 or $13 mil a year – he had better have more than a fastball.
Wallysays
Smitty … this just in … the “only” pitch Rivera throws is the cutter. EVERY pitch … the cutter. And almost always at the same speed. Now, he may move it in or out, up or down, but that’s all he throws. (Maybe that’s what you’re talking about … uses it in different ways). Everyone knows it’s coming, but 4 of 10 guys break their bats and 4 others whiff looking. 1-2 out of 10 might get a hit. That’s what’s so remarkable about Rivera … one pitch, but nobody can hit it hard. Will he backdoor ya … or saw you off?
Agreed … a straight 96 mph fastball and that’s all you got won’t work for long in the big leagues (ref: Kerry Wood who had to develop a curveball). Guys that are just throwers will be exposed before too long. He’ll have to learn a slider and/or curve/change-up to keep the closer’s role … for any team. a) it won’t be long before he can’t throw harder than 92 just from wear and tear and b) straight stuff in mid-90s is rather pedestrian these days.
Wally – one comment you are using all caps for emphasis for a word then you are the self-anointed “voice of reason” and now you return to throwing barbs?
Above you stated that Rivera has one pitch. Smitty tried to explain how that pitch works in different ways.
It’s not exactly one pitch is it now.
Interesting how you have to go back ten years to call out Rivera.
Wallysays
Casey —
Gee … I’m sorry … did I offend someone with my “barbs”? Seriously?!?
Rivera has ONE (1) pitch. Just like any pitcher, he is entitled to throw inside or out, up or down. But it’s the same ONE (1) pitch. It doesn’t work in different ways … same velocity, same right to left late movement. ONE (1) pitch. If Papelbon has one pitch … he’s also entitled to throw inside or out, up or down. If he can’t or won’t locate better, maybe that’s his problem. Or he needs a second pitch. What we’re talking about is command of the K-zone. You could actually get away with “only a 96 mph fastball” if you had good control and command to move it around.
Btw … It would help if YOU knew what YOU were talking about … There, I think that might qualify as a barb …. with CAPS for emphasis.
On Rivera … yes, he’s the best ever … can’t believe it’s been 10 years since he blew that big save vs ARZ in the WS. I can’t recall if he’s had at least one more post-season meltdown since then. Has he? All I know is that his 1.9 ERA in post-season play (is that right?) is phenomenal.
bill ribassays
Hey you kids, keep the hollering down, I’m trying to sleep down here.
Yes, you are right. It is one pitch called the Cutter. Rivera has explained the pitch. He uses the same grip/ arm slot/ release point. The difference is he has learned how to use different pressure points on the ball. Thus when the ball leaves his hand it looks like the same pitch to a batter. The announcers call it the same thing, but it becomes something different when it gets to the plate. Thus the reason for its success. It’s somewhat like a baseline-out-of-bounds series in basketball. The players may all start in the same spot ( a box set for example), the inbounder calls the same play, his teammates’ first cuts may all be the same, but after a while you add a wrinkle ( i.e. instead of cutting to the block, a player flairs to the gray area). You call the play the same thing so the opponent doesn’t catch on, but it’s not the same.
Wally – Do you think it is time for you to move on to another website? This is not the first time you have expressed a concern about the readers here lacking a breadth of knowledge similar to yours. That is fine. I accept that. The internet offers countless sites that might provide you with what you want. Thank you for the traffic you have driven to the site over the years. Look forward to seeing you at the next family gathering.
Not looking to pile on here, Wally, but we all have our weak spots. Yours appears to be looking stuff up. Here’s how you could have found that out.
1. Google “Mariano Rivera”
2. Click on first result (Rivera’s page on b-r.com)
3. Scroll down a couple times to his postseason pitching stats.
4. I’m pretty sure you can take it from there.
This probably took all of five seconds.
Seriously, though, I like what Wally brings to the discussion. We seem to all get a little over-heated sometimes (well, except Bill) and that’s fine. We’re human. When I do, I usually look back and realize how silly it is to argue with people on the internet. But, like I said, we’re all human.
With all due respect, Casey, sometimes I think you’re a little overly sensitive to Wally. Other times, I admire the fact that you just ignore the stuff you don’t want to respond to. I have a tougher time with that. Anyway, personally I don’t want to see Wally go, but you guys are kind of stuck together by your wives’ choice of husbands, so I’ll let you guys figure it out.
I just know that when I’m looking for a discussion, I’m generally pretty sure I can count on Wally to participate. That’s usually a good thing, in my opinion.
Crashsays
I’m trying to visualize the similarity between Mariano Rivera’s 1 pitch and a baseline inbounds play in basketball…I’m not getting the connection at all, in fact what the hell are you talking about ?
I guess he told you Wally ! Huh !
Wallysays
I was first to join the family, Casey. Squatter’s rights. Therefore, you can leave if you want, but I’m perfectly fine with you staying. I’m actually having fun with the sparring. I agree that you’re a bit hyper-sensitive at times and maybe you should let Smitty defend his own positions. Just sayin’ ….
Thanks for the support, Chas. 🙂
Crashsays
Don’t do it Wally, don’t bolt ! Where else will you read about mascot tryouts at Canandaigua or what color their painting the visitors locker room at Niagara ??? Nowhere !
Russellsays
Like Chas, I appreciate having Wally on here. Yes he can be a little controversial but he’s very knowledgeable and it spices things up. Nothing wrong with a good debate. I really like his college football stuff.
Crashsays
I assumed this website is like all others…A bunch of ex-jocks who are getting older slinging some compettitive banter..Apparently not ! I guess that’s to much for you Casey…Grow up ! Literally !
Casey —
I can’t publish Casual Friday if you have me locked out of WordPress. Almost had that college football preview ready to go … needed another 10 minutes.
OK Crash, now you’re going a little overboard. Defend Wally all you want, but when you start to ridicule the content that Casey posts on here, you’re the one who’s acting juvenile.
Crashsays
Chas you’re right…Casey those comments were totally unnecessary…This is your “baby” and I need to respect that…Not always agree of course but respect it…I apologize and hope no one got to “butt” hurt…
Sorry Crash and fellow pinesters waiting for Casual Friday, but for some reason I cannot access the place where posts are compiled. I was 90% done with it … then pffft … thrown out. Timing coincides with beginning of “moderation” from Big Brother.
See your local service provider for further details. (I always wanted to say that) 🙂
You’ll probably be more familiar with the layout of wordpress.
30 minutes and the least bit of technological savvy, and you will be up and running. You run the show. Pick the decorum. Let me know. I will copy and paste Wally’s Casual Friday and send it to him in an email.
Russellsays
Its almost Saturday … where’s Casual Friday?? Gotta get my fix and Wally you better pick my Razorbacks over those Aggies! Did you really lock him out Casey?
Loyal readers here is your chance to start the discussion. Pick a topic, any topic. It’s Open Thread Thursday on the Pine.
Last night was the greatest finish to a regular season in baseball history…As those 3 games unfolded live it reminded me why baseball is the greatest game on earth…I pretty much walked away from baseball after they struck the World Series in 1994 but last night was special ! What made it most memorable was the way the Red Sox lost and the Rays won ! Who cares about the Braves. Kershaw gets Cy Young and Kemp MVP ! 2 bright spots in the Dodgers nightmare !
The Boy Wonder, Theo Epstein, looked bumfuzzled last night after the collapse…
It was an epic September meltdown and I loved it, especially watching the reaction of Red Sox Nation whatever THAT is ! They’re cryin’ in their chowder today ! Ha !
Gotta go “pahk the cah for a quahta ! Translated, “park the car for a quarter” Why can’t they just say it like that ? Boston Sucks !
🙂
Crash,
1. Not everyone in Red Sox Nation is crying. September exposed a serious problem with team that I am surprised wasn’t exposed sooner. You can’t have 3 good starters and then hope you can plug the other 2. When Buchholz went down, the Sox were in trouble.
2. Not everyone in Boston speaks that way. But if you must perpetuate a tired and old stereotype – it is chowdah and quatah. At least get it right.
How do you explain the Yankees then, Smitty? 😉
Smitty’s right that not everyone in Boston speaks that way. That is, the transplants don’t. The stereotype is tired and old, alright. I’m tired of listening to the old folks in Boston abuse the English language.
How do you explain the Yankees? Mariano Rivera.
I’m pretty sure that old folks in Boston do not have a corner on the market when it comes to accents and dialect. I have been in a few NYC conversations where my comprehension was delayed because I needed to repeat the words in order to understand. Texans have their own way of speaking. Rey could probably speak about Philly. Throw the entire South in the mix for that matter.
Smitty, I believe I’ve got it right.It’s chowder and quarter.$350 million spent in the past 2 years and not even a playoff appearance. PRICELESS !
You’re right, Casey, about dialects in different parts of the country. Thank you so much for the lesson, teach.
Mariano Rivera’s great, but a closer doesn’t get you to 97 wins.
He doesn’t get you 97 wins, but he also doesn’t lose very many when they get to him.
Chas – I agree with Casey. Mariano doesn’t blow that game last night like Papelbon did. You throw a 96 mph fastball in the same spot over and over – it is going to hit. I think it is why the Sox won’t try to re-sign him and will go with Bard. Bard has 2 pitches.
Also..the Yanks lineup was pretty tough and could cover up bad starts by their pitching. The Sox could too, but when hitters started going down like Youkilis -it started getting exposed. Jed Lowrie hitting clean up is a problem.
Sure Sox payroll is high. But I will take being in the playoff race right up until the last game of the season over the state of the Mets, Dodgers and Cubs – any day of the week.
I do think the Sox have a tough decision ahead of them with Youkilis. He has not been healthy the last 2 years and at 3B – I question if he can last. Considering the investment they just made in Adrian Gonzalez – do they make a move?
I don’t think Youkilis and Papi are both back next year.
Yankees pitching was suspect all year and they had numerous injuries as well…let’s not make excuses for the Sox meltdown!
Smitty,
You’re right about the state of the Dodgers…What a shame ! All caused by some named Frank McCourt from BOSTON ! Figures…
Papi and Youkilis ? Who cares ? How old are they anyway, 50 ? Papelbon’s post gamer was classic as was Francona’s exit from the dugout !
Smitty’s right … it sucks when your team is essentially eliminated by June. Cub fans seem to face this every 2 or 3 years. This was one of them.
But Crash is right, too …. losing out to the “mega-tiny” payroll of the Rays is EMBARRASSING, injuries notwithstanding. Don’t the Bosox have anything in the minors that coulda helped avoid their historical collapse? Or do they not have much there since they’re spending soooooo much on the big league squad? Either way … OUCH.
Smitty …. next year … you say no Yuke, no Papi, no Papelbon …. who could possibly fill their shoes???
Oh, by the way, if Boston wants to release GM Theo Epstein, the Cubs will gladly accept him. Even if he isn’t the “Boy Wonder” anymore, he’s certainly not the dinosaur-type the Cubs have had in that past.
In case you didn’t notice, Crash simply despises the entire city of Boston and the New England region in general. His “poor attitude” toward the sports teams in the region primarily stems from what appears to be an inferiority complex stemming from the number of Celtics NBA titles compared to the Lakers. (Are the Celtics up by one in that count, Crash?).
Anyway, I felt the need to explain my friend’s tendancies … we’ve sent him to therapy, but obviously it has failed.
Wasn’t trying to make excuses. Trying to give credit where it is due. Saying Rivera is great seems to be an understatement, but how else does one describe him.
No way around it – the Sox stunk up the joint for the last month. Many will look to find a scapegoat, but like Wally said, there will be organizations lined up to sign a guy like Epstein.
Lesson learned though is money can not buy chemistry. Yankee fans can appreciate that. You bring in guys like Crawford and Gonzalez and yeah their numbers look great. But how does that transfer? Gonzalez obviously helped the cause, but Crawford didn’t. How would one know that from the stats.
If Maddon doesn’t get coach of the year, there is something wrong.
Agree with the last couple of things Casey said. Maddon for manager of the year and chemistry is important, albeit elusive. I don’t think what happened to the Red Sox in September is entirely due to chemistry, but it was probably a factor. Injuries, of course, were part of it too, but mostly their collapse was just one of those things that isn’t entirely explainable. They were the best team in baseball for four months and among the worst for two.
But Smitty, going into the season, the Red Sox clearly had a better rotation on paper than the Yankees, so to say you can’t have three good starters then try to plug the other two is just looking back in hindsight. When this season started, was there a better #4 and #5 in baseball than Lackey and Dice-K? Maybe in Philadelphia, although at the time that didn’t include Vance Worley, but that’s about it.
[Note: I know Lackey started game 2 and Beckett game 4, but clearly the pecking order was more like: Lester-Beckett-Buchholz, Lackey, Dice-K]
Obviously, Lackey has fallen far short of expectations, but you had to be expecting a little bounce back from him this year. Instead, he regressed. Dice-K at #5? I would have signed up for that.
No excuses here either. I have thought there was problems with this team all year that were waiting to manifest. The Sox have been terrible the last month and it was tough to watch.
Wally…complete speculation on my part about those 3. I do think that Bard could step in for Papelbon. As for Papi and Youkilis..one will be back..My guess is that Youkilis will be one who is back because he can DH; play 3B and spell at first. I think you are going to see them add a few right handed bats as this lineup is loaded with lefties.
But Tampa did a heck of a job and deserves to be in the postseason.
My only hope is that Sox don’t fire Francona.
AL Closers – Save % (Saves-Opportunities):
Jose Valverde – 100 (49-49)
Jonathan Papelbon – 91.2 (31-34)
Chris Perez – 90 (36-40)
Mariano Rivera – 89.8 (44-49)
Chas?
Chas…In March the Sox rotation did look pretty good. But Lackey was inconsistent from the start, Dice K barely pitched and Bucholtz pitched in pain for most of the season and then was done. So what looked good in March, was in trouble by June.
The Sox have been very good in past years with plugging holes and still winning. Worked for a little bit, but in the end – it caught up with them.
First of all Wally thanks for “explaining my tendancies” but next time you feel the need, please don’t ! However you are correct…The Smellticks have 17 Championships and the Lakers 16…2 of them in the past 25 years and the other 2 in the past 30 ! Get out of the 60’s Boston basketball fans…That was 50 yeras ago for Crissakes ! As for coaching…Phil Jackson 11 rings 6 with your Bulls Wally and 5 with the Lakers…Red Auerbach 9 and the last one almost 40 years ago…Lastly for the record, I love clam chowder…Manhattan NOT New England !
Great stat Chas but it doesn’t change my mind that I think he is a one pitch pony and he didn’t come through in biggest save opportunity of the season.
From that stat – how many of those save chances were when they were leading by one run? How many of those with inherited runners? Just curious. I think that stat is misleading as I think Rivera is the best closer and that stat doesn’t show it.
I wouldn’t call Rivera the best closer over the course of a 162 game regular season, that varies greatly from year to year. However, I think most would agree he is the closer you would want most in October/November.
This coming from a Phillies fan.
Does anyone else get the sense that Crash is a “rougher-around-the-edges” version of Wally? Stated will all due respect to both of them, of course. 🙂
Drew, why did you have to qualify that by saying you’re a Phillies fan? It’s not like you were going to suggest Brad Lidge is better. 😉
Gentlemen … gentlemen. Let’s pause here and take a step back. Rarely am I the calming voice of reason, but let me give it a try.
Now Smitty, not to pick on you, but you wrote “Great stat Chas but it doesn’t change my mind that I think he (Papelbon) is a one pitch pony and he didn’t come through in biggest save opportunity of the season.” First of all, Rivera is a “one pitch pony” and he’s gonna ride that to the HoF. (But that cutter is one special pitch, huh?) Secondly, Rivera is the GREATEST reliever of all time … don’t think anyone can dispute that … BUT, don’t we all remember several Arizona D-backs rounding the bases in the 9th inning of the deciding game of a WS win vs the Yankmees while Rivera was on the mound? The point here is that even the greatest will fail at times, and in this case, Rivera failed on the biggest stage of all.
So … yes, Papelbon blew the save last night in an extremely important game. But he got the save the night before which was the “most important game of the year” at that point. Which most important game of the year do you want to pick?
Papelbon had a great save % this year and ya gotta respect that. BUT … maybe he’s tailing off and starting to show wear? It happens quickly with most closers. Quite telling is his 2.94 ERA … that’s not very good for a closer … the elite closers in given year should be lower than 2.25 or so. So Smitty, you are probably right that Boston should consider letting him go … due to mileage.
What was Boston’s record in September for Lester’s and Beckett’s combined starts? That is as much to blame for their swoon as anything … possibly the biggest reason of all.
I look for the WhiteSox to sign Big Papi … and then I’m sure he’ll turn into Adam Dunn 🙂
Chas … you’ve probably got Crash and I pegged about right, but i’d tweak it a little and say Crash is “much rougher around the edges”. Crash, would you agree? 😉
Ya think ? Duh ! Helllloooooo… 110% actually. 🙂
Wally…yeah Mariano throws a cutter but he is able use it so many different ways – to me he has more than one pitch.
Sure Papelbon got the save the night before, but he struggled doing it. I have never been a huge fan of him so maybe that gets in the way. I think he throws a very straight 96 fastball and tries to blow it by everyone. I think it catches up to him. For a guy that wants $12 or $13 mil a year – he had better have more than a fastball.
Smitty … this just in … the “only” pitch Rivera throws is the cutter. EVERY pitch … the cutter. And almost always at the same speed. Now, he may move it in or out, up or down, but that’s all he throws. (Maybe that’s what you’re talking about … uses it in different ways). Everyone knows it’s coming, but 4 of 10 guys break their bats and 4 others whiff looking. 1-2 out of 10 might get a hit. That’s what’s so remarkable about Rivera … one pitch, but nobody can hit it hard. Will he backdoor ya … or saw you off?
Agreed … a straight 96 mph fastball and that’s all you got won’t work for long in the big leagues (ref: Kerry Wood who had to develop a curveball). Guys that are just throwers will be exposed before too long. He’ll have to learn a slider and/or curve/change-up to keep the closer’s role … for any team. a) it won’t be long before he can’t throw harder than 92 just from wear and tear and b) straight stuff in mid-90s is rather pedestrian these days.
Wally – one comment you are using all caps for emphasis for a word then you are the self-anointed “voice of reason” and now you return to throwing barbs?
Above you stated that Rivera has one pitch. Smitty tried to explain how that pitch works in different ways.
It’s not exactly one pitch is it now.
Interesting how you have to go back ten years to call out Rivera.
Casey —
Gee … I’m sorry … did I offend someone with my “barbs”? Seriously?!?
Rivera has ONE (1) pitch. Just like any pitcher, he is entitled to throw inside or out, up or down. But it’s the same ONE (1) pitch. It doesn’t work in different ways … same velocity, same right to left late movement. ONE (1) pitch. If Papelbon has one pitch … he’s also entitled to throw inside or out, up or down. If he can’t or won’t locate better, maybe that’s his problem. Or he needs a second pitch. What we’re talking about is command of the K-zone. You could actually get away with “only a 96 mph fastball” if you had good control and command to move it around.
Btw … It would help if YOU knew what YOU were talking about … There, I think that might qualify as a barb …. with CAPS for emphasis.
On Rivera … yes, he’s the best ever … can’t believe it’s been 10 years since he blew that big save vs ARZ in the WS. I can’t recall if he’s had at least one more post-season meltdown since then. Has he? All I know is that his 1.9 ERA in post-season play (is that right?) is phenomenal.
Hey you kids, keep the hollering down, I’m trying to sleep down here.
Yes, you are right. It is one pitch called the Cutter. Rivera has explained the pitch. He uses the same grip/ arm slot/ release point. The difference is he has learned how to use different pressure points on the ball. Thus when the ball leaves his hand it looks like the same pitch to a batter. The announcers call it the same thing, but it becomes something different when it gets to the plate. Thus the reason for its success. It’s somewhat like a baseline-out-of-bounds series in basketball. The players may all start in the same spot ( a box set for example), the inbounder calls the same play, his teammates’ first cuts may all be the same, but after a while you add a wrinkle ( i.e. instead of cutting to the block, a player flairs to the gray area). You call the play the same thing so the opponent doesn’t catch on, but it’s not the same.
Wally – Do you think it is time for you to move on to another website? This is not the first time you have expressed a concern about the readers here lacking a breadth of knowledge similar to yours. That is fine. I accept that. The internet offers countless sites that might provide you with what you want. Thank you for the traffic you have driven to the site over the years. Look forward to seeing you at the next family gathering.
Paul
Rivera’s postseason ERA is 0.71.
Not looking to pile on here, Wally, but we all have our weak spots. Yours appears to be looking stuff up. Here’s how you could have found that out.
1. Google “Mariano Rivera”
2. Click on first result (Rivera’s page on b-r.com)
3. Scroll down a couple times to his postseason pitching stats.
4. I’m pretty sure you can take it from there.
This probably took all of five seconds.
Seriously, though, I like what Wally brings to the discussion. We seem to all get a little over-heated sometimes (well, except Bill) and that’s fine. We’re human. When I do, I usually look back and realize how silly it is to argue with people on the internet. But, like I said, we’re all human.
With all due respect, Casey, sometimes I think you’re a little overly sensitive to Wally. Other times, I admire the fact that you just ignore the stuff you don’t want to respond to. I have a tougher time with that. Anyway, personally I don’t want to see Wally go, but you guys are kind of stuck together by your wives’ choice of husbands, so I’ll let you guys figure it out.
I just know that when I’m looking for a discussion, I’m generally pretty sure I can count on Wally to participate. That’s usually a good thing, in my opinion.
I’m trying to visualize the similarity between Mariano Rivera’s 1 pitch and a baseline inbounds play in basketball…I’m not getting the connection at all, in fact what the hell are you talking about ?
I guess he told you Wally ! Huh !
I was first to join the family, Casey. Squatter’s rights. Therefore, you can leave if you want, but I’m perfectly fine with you staying. I’m actually having fun with the sparring. I agree that you’re a bit hyper-sensitive at times and maybe you should let Smitty defend his own positions. Just sayin’ ….
Thanks for the support, Chas. 🙂
Don’t do it Wally, don’t bolt ! Where else will you read about mascot tryouts at Canandaigua or what color their painting the visitors locker room at Niagara ??? Nowhere !
Like Chas, I appreciate having Wally on here. Yes he can be a little controversial but he’s very knowledgeable and it spices things up. Nothing wrong with a good debate. I really like his college football stuff.
I assumed this website is like all others…A bunch of ex-jocks who are getting older slinging some compettitive banter..Apparently not ! I guess that’s to much for you Casey…Grow up ! Literally !
Casey —
I can’t publish Casual Friday if you have me locked out of WordPress. Almost had that college football preview ready to go … needed another 10 minutes.
OK Crash, now you’re going a little overboard. Defend Wally all you want, but when you start to ridicule the content that Casey posts on here, you’re the one who’s acting juvenile.
Chas you’re right…Casey those comments were totally unnecessary…This is your “baby” and I need to respect that…Not always agree of course but respect it…I apologize and hope no one got to “butt” hurt…
Wally, you’re slackin’ dude ! Where’s Casual Friday ?
Wow.
Sorry Crash and fellow pinesters waiting for Casual Friday, but for some reason I cannot access the place where posts are compiled. I was 90% done with it … then pffft … thrown out. Timing coincides with beginning of “moderation” from Big Brother.
See your local service provider for further details. (I always wanted to say that) 🙂
Sounds like you guys have the foundation for your own site.
You can start here: https://wordpress.com/
There are other places too, like: https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=blogger&passive=1209600&continue=https://www.blogger.com/home&followup=https://www.blogger.com/home<mpl=start#s01
You’ll probably be more familiar with the layout of wordpress.
30 minutes and the least bit of technological savvy, and you will be up and running. You run the show. Pick the decorum. Let me know. I will copy and paste Wally’s Casual Friday and send it to him in an email.
Its almost Saturday … where’s Casual Friday?? Gotta get my fix and Wally you better pick my Razorbacks over those Aggies! Did you really lock him out Casey?
We want Wally!
Boo hoo…I guess we know who got “butt” hurt.