I say … save your gestures and celebration at least until AFTER you cross homeplate and are on your way to the dugout. Sure, a couple handshakes and high fives with the 3B coach and teammates you batted in are fine, but things like praising the Lord and any other “unusual gestures” are best saved for the on-deck circle or the dugout steps. None of this applies of course to the walk-off HR when you can pretty much do what you want cuz it’s game over.
IMO, the Yankmee catcher deserved to get drilled later in the game for what he did after his HR (at homeplate) and Ortiz deserves to get drilled just for “being Ortiz”. Sorry … he just annoys me 😉
Well, at least you’re consistent. That’s all we can ask. But, to call Cervelli’s celebration “excessive” and not Ortiz’s is a bit ridiculous.
I’m consistent as well. I think neither of them should be drilled for their actions. These celebrations are way more muted than those that take place in the NFL. Not that we should be using that childishness as a benchmark for anything.
Wallysays
No … I think both celebrations were excessive … just in different ways.
I’m actually okay with what goes on in the NFL because a) it really can’t be construed as being pointed at one individual (e.g the pitcher) and b) physical retribution is part of football anyway … if the Steelers defense is ticked about a Raven player “over-celebrating”, you can be sure they’ll get him later in the game.
Now having said that, I don’t like it as an example for kids.
And the other thing is that I think the college rules prohibiting “excessive celebration” are ridiculous in their application. Refs are actually looking to see if a player smiles after crossing the goal line … I know that’s another of my huge exxaggerations, but it almost seems like their looking hard to bust someone …. and these 15 yarders can be total game changers.
I didn’t say you called either of them excessive, Wally. John Lackey called Cervelli’s hand-clapping excessive.
Right, in the NFL they take care of things, but are capable of doing so legally, with just hard, clean play. Throwing at a batter is the MLB equivalent of a cheap shot/dirty play in the NFL; and the only people interpreting these minor celebrations as directed at the pitcher are the thin-skinned, cry-baby pitchers themselves. This is not exclusive to John Lackey, of course.
Or, maybe it’s just thin-skinned, cry-baby American League pitchers. I’ve always liked the AL/NL difference regarding use of the DH. I’m starting to change my mind…
Wallysays
I’ll never condone throwing at a batter and anything up around the head is a big no-no. But I do condone “pitching inside” and “taking the inside half of the plate back”. If one happens to get away … well … that’s the way it goes. If you’re gonna dive across the plate or crowd the plate … guess you’re at high risk of getting hit.
And gosh dang it … my pet peeve … if you’re gonna step out after every pitch to adjust both batting glove straps and your elbow/shin armour and make me wait, I’m gonna give you a good reason to get out of the box … quickly!
Laying the blame for celebration retributions solely at the feet of crybaby pitchers is short-sighted. If you don’t think Tony LaRussa, Mike Sciosa, et al are involved in what happens in that space, you’re kidding yourself. It’s baseball’s “organized crime”, if you will.
I hate to think that Billy “White Shoes” Johnson somehow contributed to all this. I loved his touchdown dance as a kid. I am not in favor of the celebrations. At this point all celebrations seemed premeditated and needless. I hate the idea that guys actually have think about how they are going to celebrate. Spontaneity please.
As for Cervelli, I did not see his hand claps, but his bail out last night was beyond amusing. He turns his back to a Beckett breaking ball bracing to get hit and the pitch gets called a strike. Last time I saw someone bail out like that, the daughters were forcing me to watch Titanic.
Slag Beckett all you want about taking too much time between pitches. When his breaking ball is on, nobody is better. Not questioning Verlander’s ability, but until he does something in the playoffs, his resume is incomplete.
Hate on Ortiz if you must, but if he was taking the Dan Ryan to work for home games, we would be reading weekly comparisons of him to Dick Allen on the Pine.
Back to Cervelli – didn’t see Tuesday’s game because we went to the Red Wings – Pawtucket game. By the way – a minor league game that took close to 3 1/2 hours to complete. Youkilis and JD Drew were getting in some rehab on the farm. Great picture in the paper the next day of Youk signing autographs. It was good to see him giving back to game.
I don’t agree, Wally. It’s mostly the pitchers whose egos are bruised and who are in control of the situation with no fear of retribution against them. If you want to continue to act like they’re not the primary cause of this, then I’m not going to bother to try to convince you otherwise. Short-sighted…whatever.
Casey…Cervelli’s in the bottom 5% of major league hitters and Beckett’s curveball is perhaps the best. You do the math. I’m sure it had less to do with him fearing being hit than with him just being completely over-matched. Why would they throw at him again? Even Josh Beckett’s not that blood-thirsty.
The fact that Cervelli’s so bad is all the more reason that Lackey’s antics on Tuesday night were ridiculous. He let the worst hitter on the Yankees beat him not once, but twice. Lackey’s been such a buffoon since coming to Boston that I’m really shocked so many people here think he was right for what he did. I guess it’s hard for fans to step outside of their homerism.
Now … throwing at a guy cuz YOU suck is not a good reason. That would be Carlos Zambrano … and maybe John Lackey the other night. I’m partially agreeing with you, Chas 🙂
Don’t EVER compare David Ortiz to Dick Allen. EVER!
Gee … wonder how a minor league game could possibly take 3 1/2 hours. Ya think it might be because a Red Sox affiliate, Pawtucket, was playing??? Slow, plodding play is endemic to their entire organization. They teach it in rookie ball.
I think we just assume that it is the pitcher who is upset and hits the guy. How many of these are under direction from teammates or coaches?
I am all for a guy running around the bases after hitting a home run or getting a base hit for that matter. I don’t need to see that they are religious, a new I love you sign to the kids back home or that their heart is beating. Just run the bases and celebrate with your teammates when you are back on the bench. Seriously, do guys point to the sky after they take a dump??
Problem is.. this has been going on for years and until MLB puts a stop to it. It is only going to get worse. Reggie Jackson used to throw his bat. Rickey Henderson used to do a hop and a finger twirl. MLB should have put an end to it back then.
I agree with Wally on the batter crowding the plate. Batters are hugging the plate so they can pull that outside pitch over the fence. I don’t blame pitchers for coming inside and trying to take back the inside half of the plate. I am also sick of the guys wearing elbow and arm pads up there.
But Chas – you are right in that pitchers have to be a little less sensitive. So if I seem like I am on the fence – it is because it is a two way street and the hitters are just as guilty as the pitchers.
I didn’t see Cervelli’s home run trot and frankly I don’t care. If he clapped his hands at home plate – who cares? Just get him out the next time Lackey.
Wally – the Red Sox as a organization believe in working the pitchers, getting their pitch counts up and hopefully taking advantage. Considering the success, I don’t have a problem with it.
Wallysays
Smitty —
Working the pitchers, getting their pitch counts up … so what? Does that mean that Boston pitchers have to eat a sandwich between pitches? That their hitters need to restrap both batting gloves and retie their shoes after EVERY pitch???
I actually think most baseball coaches will tell you that working quickly on the mound helps you and helps your defensive team. Helps you get into a good pitching rhythm and helps your teammates stay on their toes and not fall asleep out there. Maybe Boston’s pitching staff would actually be even MORE successful if they didn’t order out for pizza between pitches??? Maybe their hitters would be EVEN more successful if they weren’t so tired from being up well past midnight every day??? Maybe fewer elderly fans would die of natural causes at every Fenway game???
bill ribassays
I saw the clips on ESPN. Cervelli clapped as he came across the plate, and from hs motion it looked as if it were toward the catcher. I can see how the Sox were not amused. He also said in the clubhouse after the game that he always does that, and I’m guessing dingers are few and far between for him. He would have been better off doing it on the trot back to the dugout.
And I don’t blame the pitchers for smacking someone in the back after showing off, since it’s kind of a known thing. You show up after a homer by dancing or whatever, you better keep your eyes open next visit to the plate.Pitchers are also limited on inside pitches, since batters hover over the plate and wear all sorts of armor. I’d say the hitters are more of a crybaby than the pitchers.
I would have thrown at Cervelli, but that’s the kind of guy I am.
Nice Titanic joke, Casey.
Wallysays
As those of you watching Yankmees-RedSox know, its 10:25 EST and the game has just gone to Bottom of the 7th with NY up 4-2. 3 hrs 20 min and counting. I went out and cut my lawn during the top of the 7th. 🙂
Wallysays
Rangers are beating the Rays 6-2. Now both games are in top of the 8th. However, the Rangers game started an hour AFTER the Red Sox-Yankmees game. Way to “work those pitchers”, Bosox!
Wallysays
4-2 win for NYY. 4 hrs 22 min !!! That’s all Bob Costas and Jim Kaat could talk about they were so bored (or disgusted). 17 fans died of natural causes at Fenway during the game … 3 more than on Tues night. Let’s hear it for Smitty Ball !!!
Because a) i’m a baseball fan, man! and b) I’m an hour behind you guys so I can usually stay awake. Usually.
Jim Kaat said that in his era … primarily ’60s – mid ’70s … a 2 hr 45 min game was considered “long”. He cited that there were at least a few things different now … smaller parks, DH, tougher line-ups top to bottom … but he really focused on the smaller strike zone today as being a major cause of longer games. That’s what I’ve been saying and a few others on the Pine feel similarly. Anyway, Fenway is the same size it was back in the old days, so what’s their excuse? How does a Rangers 7-2 win over the Rays finish in 3:03 while Boston’s 4-2 loss takes 4:20? It’s gotta be Smitty Ball.
Wally, if Kaat is going to analyze what’s different then he should look at all factors. I think the fact that baseball people back in the ’60s thought, mistakenly, that batting average was king, whereas now everyone realizes that getting on base is more important is a huge factor. Don’t get me wrong. I would like to see the games move along faster, but I’d also like to see someone look at pitch counts vs. game time and see if the biggest factor is players slowing the game down or this new era of competitiveness that’s making the games last longer.
I guess now we know that Wally and Bill used to be crybab…er, I mean pitchers since they’re both do quick to defend them.
Wallysays
Watch it Chas … or I’ll come inside with some heat! Well … what’s left I guess. But I was also a pretty good hitter with HR power (BITD) and so Ive been on both sides of the equation.
bill ribassays
Chas, I was never a pitcher, never really played ball either (well, one season of little league). I just think a pitcher has a right to throw inside, just as he does outside, and for a hitter to encroach without thinking there is the possibility of getting hit, or pulling a “Jeter,” ain’t all that fair. Add in a shrinking strike zone, and I’ll side with the pitcher.
Yeah, well I never said I didn’t think a pitcher should throw inside. I just think they, or anyone in the game for that matter, shouldn’t be so sensitive to being “shown up” by emotional displays of exuberance. That’s all. Enough on that subject. It does seem like it’s tougher to be a pitcher in this era than eras past.
Wally, I was only thrown at once in my playing career…at least once that was obvious. The pitcher had been playing 3B earlier in the game, and I took him out on a slide into third after he had bobbled a grounder and forced me out (with runners on first and second). My initial inclination was to try and prevent a double play, but of course, there was no chance anymore after he bobbled the ball. There was bad blood between us from off the field, and when one of my teammates high-fived me on the bench, I’m sure he took notice. When he was pitching later in the game, he threw at my legs, but missed. I glared at him afterwards, but his back was turned.
By the way, Andruw Jones saw 36 pitches in 4 plate appearances last night. That is unbelievable, and it surely slowed the game down considerably, but it has nothing to do with the pace of the pitchers or the hitters stepping out, etc. The only aspect of this discussion that might be relevant is the strike zone.
I may have mentioned this before, but I’ve been to a lot of low-level minor league games and the pace of those games is much faster. Now, that might be because the players aren’t prima donnas yet, but it’s also because the younger kids haven’t yet mastered the skill of working a count and fouling off pitch after pitch.
bill ribassays
The networks also have a lot to do with slowing down the games, with all the commercial breaks. Gotta sell that product after all.
Very true, and that’s another thing we’re just going to have to live with…although that comes with the territory in other sports too. It’s just that baseball probably has more regular breaks in the action.
Wallysays
Chas —
Anomalies aside (like Andruw Jones), there’s still something conspicuously time dragging with Red Sox games or games at Fenway. Let’s just entirely remove those 36 pitches from the entire equation … let’s assign each pitch 25 seconds (that’s lengthy as it is). That’s 15 minutes for his 36 pitches. Remove Andruw’s 15 minutes of fouling off pitches and you still have a 4 hr 5 min game that was only 4-2 with 17 total hits.
The Royals beat the Tigers 11-8 and there were 28 hits with each team using 5 pitchers! Game time was “only” 3:17. Toronto beat the Orioles 8-6 with 20 hits and 9 pitchers used … game time was 3:01.
Is the time between innings for Boston games somehow twice what it is for everyone else? Are they trying to cram more commercials in or something like that? If it’s not this, then there’s got to be something else going on there. I’m tellin’ ya … it’s Smitty Ball! 🙂
OK Wally, the Sox-Yanks game was definitely slower paced, but you’re looking at the wrong factors. Forget the hits, it’s the number of pitches thrown in a game you have to look at:
So yes, small sample size here, but Yanks-Sox was slower paced. What else do we need to factor in? 9 pitching changes in Yanks-Sox, vs. 8 and 7 in the other two games. Not that big a factor, but a few minutes difference. The other thing is Yanks-Sox was nationally televised on the MLB network. So, I’m not sure how much of a factor that was, but it is a factor.
Chas stated recently that the Sox and Yanks both rank high in drawing walks.
Wallysays
Exactly … it’s Smitty Ball … stall, delay, eat a sandwich, adjust your gloves, get more pine tar. It’s the PLAYERS which is what I’ve said all along. And the umps for letting ’em get away with it.
Thanks Casey, but I want to make clear that I’m not discounting that slower working pitchers can make a big difference too. The difference between Josh Beckett and Mark Buehrle is 9 secs. per pitch. Multiply that times 100 and you’ve got a 15 minute difference. Certainly not insignificant.
Getting back on track again here, let’s compare Yanks-Sox to Jays-O’s and say 1.67 pitches/minute is an acceptable pace. Then, the Yanks-Sox should have ended in 228 minutes, so it ran 33 minutes long. Since there were two more pitching changes, at 2 1/2 mins. per change, that accounts for 5 of the 33 minutes.
That leaves 28 mins. to account for. I just looked it up and Burnett and Lester average 24 secs. per pitch, compared to 21.5 for the average pitcher. At 2 1/2 secs. per pitch over 210 pitches between them, that’s roughly 9 additional minutes, leaving 19 mins. left to account for. Of course, that doesn’t take into account the relief pitchers, but that’s more than half the game there.
Is it safe to say that a national televised game adds 19 mins. to a broadcast? I don’t know, but we can definitely say that when you look at all the factors, last night’s game was not as outrageously long in comparison to the other games as Wally would like to believe. You just have to know what factors to look at.
I would say it has more to go with the fact that there’s so much more tension created by the grinding at bats, resulting in more catcher trips to the mound and possibly more pitching coach trips to the mound, in addition to the other factors.
Case closed, unless Wally wants to bring in some data of his own other than, “I watched the game, I saw with my own two eyes how many times Nick Swisher adjusts his crotch between pitches.”
Loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
Slow news day. How about a little discussion about Home Run Celebrating 101:
https://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/01/home-run-celebrating-101/
I say … save your gestures and celebration at least until AFTER you cross homeplate and are on your way to the dugout. Sure, a couple handshakes and high fives with the 3B coach and teammates you batted in are fine, but things like praising the Lord and any other “unusual gestures” are best saved for the on-deck circle or the dugout steps. None of this applies of course to the walk-off HR when you can pretty much do what you want cuz it’s game over.
IMO, the Yankmee catcher deserved to get drilled later in the game for what he did after his HR (at homeplate) and Ortiz deserves to get drilled just for “being Ortiz”. Sorry … he just annoys me 😉
Well, at least you’re consistent. That’s all we can ask. But, to call Cervelli’s celebration “excessive” and not Ortiz’s is a bit ridiculous.
I’m consistent as well. I think neither of them should be drilled for their actions. These celebrations are way more muted than those that take place in the NFL. Not that we should be using that childishness as a benchmark for anything.
No … I think both celebrations were excessive … just in different ways.
I’m actually okay with what goes on in the NFL because a) it really can’t be construed as being pointed at one individual (e.g the pitcher) and b) physical retribution is part of football anyway … if the Steelers defense is ticked about a Raven player “over-celebrating”, you can be sure they’ll get him later in the game.
Now having said that, I don’t like it as an example for kids.
And the other thing is that I think the college rules prohibiting “excessive celebration” are ridiculous in their application. Refs are actually looking to see if a player smiles after crossing the goal line … I know that’s another of my huge exxaggerations, but it almost seems like their looking hard to bust someone …. and these 15 yarders can be total game changers.
I didn’t say you called either of them excessive, Wally. John Lackey called Cervelli’s hand-clapping excessive.
Right, in the NFL they take care of things, but are capable of doing so legally, with just hard, clean play. Throwing at a batter is the MLB equivalent of a cheap shot/dirty play in the NFL; and the only people interpreting these minor celebrations as directed at the pitcher are the thin-skinned, cry-baby pitchers themselves. This is not exclusive to John Lackey, of course.
Or, maybe it’s just thin-skinned, cry-baby American League pitchers. I’ve always liked the AL/NL difference regarding use of the DH. I’m starting to change my mind…
I’ll never condone throwing at a batter and anything up around the head is a big no-no. But I do condone “pitching inside” and “taking the inside half of the plate back”. If one happens to get away … well … that’s the way it goes. If you’re gonna dive across the plate or crowd the plate … guess you’re at high risk of getting hit.
And gosh dang it … my pet peeve … if you’re gonna step out after every pitch to adjust both batting glove straps and your elbow/shin armour and make me wait, I’m gonna give you a good reason to get out of the box … quickly!
Laying the blame for celebration retributions solely at the feet of crybaby pitchers is short-sighted. If you don’t think Tony LaRussa, Mike Sciosa, et al are involved in what happens in that space, you’re kidding yourself. It’s baseball’s “organized crime”, if you will.
I hate to think that Billy “White Shoes” Johnson somehow contributed to all this. I loved his touchdown dance as a kid. I am not in favor of the celebrations. At this point all celebrations seemed premeditated and needless. I hate the idea that guys actually have think about how they are going to celebrate. Spontaneity please.
As for Cervelli, I did not see his hand claps, but his bail out last night was beyond amusing. He turns his back to a Beckett breaking ball bracing to get hit and the pitch gets called a strike. Last time I saw someone bail out like that, the daughters were forcing me to watch Titanic.
Slag Beckett all you want about taking too much time between pitches. When his breaking ball is on, nobody is better. Not questioning Verlander’s ability, but until he does something in the playoffs, his resume is incomplete.
Hate on Ortiz if you must, but if he was taking the Dan Ryan to work for home games, we would be reading weekly comparisons of him to Dick Allen on the Pine.
Back to Cervelli – didn’t see Tuesday’s game because we went to the Red Wings – Pawtucket game. By the way – a minor league game that took close to 3 1/2 hours to complete. Youkilis and JD Drew were getting in some rehab on the farm. Great picture in the paper the next day of Youk signing autographs. It was good to see him giving back to game.
I don’t agree, Wally. It’s mostly the pitchers whose egos are bruised and who are in control of the situation with no fear of retribution against them. If you want to continue to act like they’re not the primary cause of this, then I’m not going to bother to try to convince you otherwise. Short-sighted…whatever.
Casey…Cervelli’s in the bottom 5% of major league hitters and Beckett’s curveball is perhaps the best. You do the math. I’m sure it had less to do with him fearing being hit than with him just being completely over-matched. Why would they throw at him again? Even Josh Beckett’s not that blood-thirsty.
The fact that Cervelli’s so bad is all the more reason that Lackey’s antics on Tuesday night were ridiculous. He let the worst hitter on the Yankees beat him not once, but twice. Lackey’s been such a buffoon since coming to Boston that I’m really shocked so many people here think he was right for what he did. I guess it’s hard for fans to step outside of their homerism.
Now … throwing at a guy cuz YOU suck is not a good reason. That would be Carlos Zambrano … and maybe John Lackey the other night. I’m partially agreeing with you, Chas 🙂
Don’t EVER compare David Ortiz to Dick Allen. EVER!
Gee … wonder how a minor league game could possibly take 3 1/2 hours. Ya think it might be because a Red Sox affiliate, Pawtucket, was playing??? Slow, plodding play is endemic to their entire organization. They teach it in rookie ball.
I think we just assume that it is the pitcher who is upset and hits the guy. How many of these are under direction from teammates or coaches?
I am all for a guy running around the bases after hitting a home run or getting a base hit for that matter. I don’t need to see that they are religious, a new I love you sign to the kids back home or that their heart is beating. Just run the bases and celebrate with your teammates when you are back on the bench. Seriously, do guys point to the sky after they take a dump??
Problem is.. this has been going on for years and until MLB puts a stop to it. It is only going to get worse. Reggie Jackson used to throw his bat. Rickey Henderson used to do a hop and a finger twirl. MLB should have put an end to it back then.
I agree with Wally on the batter crowding the plate. Batters are hugging the plate so they can pull that outside pitch over the fence. I don’t blame pitchers for coming inside and trying to take back the inside half of the plate. I am also sick of the guys wearing elbow and arm pads up there.
But Chas – you are right in that pitchers have to be a little less sensitive. So if I seem like I am on the fence – it is because it is a two way street and the hitters are just as guilty as the pitchers.
I didn’t see Cervelli’s home run trot and frankly I don’t care. If he clapped his hands at home plate – who cares? Just get him out the next time Lackey.
I did see his bail out though.. 🙂
Wally – the Red Sox as a organization believe in working the pitchers, getting their pitch counts up and hopefully taking advantage. Considering the success, I don’t have a problem with it.
Smitty —
Working the pitchers, getting their pitch counts up … so what? Does that mean that Boston pitchers have to eat a sandwich between pitches? That their hitters need to restrap both batting gloves and retie their shoes after EVERY pitch???
I actually think most baseball coaches will tell you that working quickly on the mound helps you and helps your defensive team. Helps you get into a good pitching rhythm and helps your teammates stay on their toes and not fall asleep out there. Maybe Boston’s pitching staff would actually be even MORE successful if they didn’t order out for pizza between pitches??? Maybe their hitters would be EVEN more successful if they weren’t so tired from being up well past midnight every day??? Maybe fewer elderly fans would die of natural causes at every Fenway game???
I saw the clips on ESPN. Cervelli clapped as he came across the plate, and from hs motion it looked as if it were toward the catcher. I can see how the Sox were not amused. He also said in the clubhouse after the game that he always does that, and I’m guessing dingers are few and far between for him. He would have been better off doing it on the trot back to the dugout.
And I don’t blame the pitchers for smacking someone in the back after showing off, since it’s kind of a known thing. You show up after a homer by dancing or whatever, you better keep your eyes open next visit to the plate.Pitchers are also limited on inside pitches, since batters hover over the plate and wear all sorts of armor. I’d say the hitters are more of a crybaby than the pitchers.
I would have thrown at Cervelli, but that’s the kind of guy I am.
Nice Titanic joke, Casey.
As those of you watching Yankmees-RedSox know, its 10:25 EST and the game has just gone to Bottom of the 7th with NY up 4-2. 3 hrs 20 min and counting. I went out and cut my lawn during the top of the 7th. 🙂
Rangers are beating the Rays 6-2. Now both games are in top of the 8th. However, the Rangers game started an hour AFTER the Red Sox-Yankmees game. Way to “work those pitchers”, Bosox!
4-2 win for NYY. 4 hrs 22 min !!! That’s all Bob Costas and Jim Kaat could talk about they were so bored (or disgusted). 17 fans died of natural causes at Fenway during the game … 3 more than on Tues night. Let’s hear it for Smitty Ball !!!
Why do you bother watching?
Because a) i’m a baseball fan, man! and b) I’m an hour behind you guys so I can usually stay awake. Usually.
Jim Kaat said that in his era … primarily ’60s – mid ’70s … a 2 hr 45 min game was considered “long”. He cited that there were at least a few things different now … smaller parks, DH, tougher line-ups top to bottom … but he really focused on the smaller strike zone today as being a major cause of longer games. That’s what I’ve been saying and a few others on the Pine feel similarly. Anyway, Fenway is the same size it was back in the old days, so what’s their excuse? How does a Rangers 7-2 win over the Rays finish in 3:03 while Boston’s 4-2 loss takes 4:20? It’s gotta be Smitty Ball.
Wally, if Kaat is going to analyze what’s different then he should look at all factors. I think the fact that baseball people back in the ’60s thought, mistakenly, that batting average was king, whereas now everyone realizes that getting on base is more important is a huge factor. Don’t get me wrong. I would like to see the games move along faster, but I’d also like to see someone look at pitch counts vs. game time and see if the biggest factor is players slowing the game down or this new era of competitiveness that’s making the games last longer.
I guess now we know that Wally and Bill used to be crybab…er, I mean pitchers since they’re both do quick to defend them.
Watch it Chas … or I’ll come inside with some heat! Well … what’s left I guess. But I was also a pretty good hitter with HR power (BITD) and so Ive been on both sides of the equation.
Chas, I was never a pitcher, never really played ball either (well, one season of little league). I just think a pitcher has a right to throw inside, just as he does outside, and for a hitter to encroach without thinking there is the possibility of getting hit, or pulling a “Jeter,” ain’t all that fair. Add in a shrinking strike zone, and I’ll side with the pitcher.
Yeah, well I never said I didn’t think a pitcher should throw inside. I just think they, or anyone in the game for that matter, shouldn’t be so sensitive to being “shown up” by emotional displays of exuberance. That’s all. Enough on that subject. It does seem like it’s tougher to be a pitcher in this era than eras past.
Wally, I was only thrown at once in my playing career…at least once that was obvious. The pitcher had been playing 3B earlier in the game, and I took him out on a slide into third after he had bobbled a grounder and forced me out (with runners on first and second). My initial inclination was to try and prevent a double play, but of course, there was no chance anymore after he bobbled the ball. There was bad blood between us from off the field, and when one of my teammates high-fived me on the bench, I’m sure he took notice. When he was pitching later in the game, he threw at my legs, but missed. I glared at him afterwards, but his back was turned.
We were 15. 🙂
By the way, Andruw Jones saw 36 pitches in 4 plate appearances last night. That is unbelievable, and it surely slowed the game down considerably, but it has nothing to do with the pace of the pitchers or the hitters stepping out, etc. The only aspect of this discussion that might be relevant is the strike zone.
I may have mentioned this before, but I’ve been to a lot of low-level minor league games and the pace of those games is much faster. Now, that might be because the players aren’t prima donnas yet, but it’s also because the younger kids haven’t yet mastered the skill of working a count and fouling off pitch after pitch.
The networks also have a lot to do with slowing down the games, with all the commercial breaks. Gotta sell that product after all.
Very true, and that’s another thing we’re just going to have to live with…although that comes with the territory in other sports too. It’s just that baseball probably has more regular breaks in the action.
Chas —
Anomalies aside (like Andruw Jones), there’s still something conspicuously time dragging with Red Sox games or games at Fenway. Let’s just entirely remove those 36 pitches from the entire equation … let’s assign each pitch 25 seconds (that’s lengthy as it is). That’s 15 minutes for his 36 pitches. Remove Andruw’s 15 minutes of fouling off pitches and you still have a 4 hr 5 min game that was only 4-2 with 17 total hits.
The Royals beat the Tigers 11-8 and there were 28 hits with each team using 5 pitchers! Game time was “only” 3:17. Toronto beat the Orioles 8-6 with 20 hits and 9 pitchers used … game time was 3:01.
Is the time between innings for Boston games somehow twice what it is for everyone else? Are they trying to cram more commercials in or something like that? If it’s not this, then there’s got to be something else going on there. I’m tellin’ ya … it’s Smitty Ball! 🙂
OK Wally, the Sox-Yanks game was definitely slower paced, but you’re looking at the wrong factors. Forget the hits, it’s the number of pitches thrown in a game you have to look at:
Yanks-Sox: 381 pitches/261 mins. = 1.46 pitches/min.
Royals-Tigers: 337 pitches/197 mins. = 1.71 pitches/min.
Jays-O’s: 302 pitches/181 mins. = 1.67 pitches/min.
So yes, small sample size here, but Yanks-Sox was slower paced. What else do we need to factor in? 9 pitching changes in Yanks-Sox, vs. 8 and 7 in the other two games. Not that big a factor, but a few minutes difference. The other thing is Yanks-Sox was nationally televised on the MLB network. So, I’m not sure how much of a factor that was, but it is a factor.
HELMET STICKER for that research. Great job Chas.
Chas stated recently that the Sox and Yanks both rank high in drawing walks.
Exactly … it’s Smitty Ball … stall, delay, eat a sandwich, adjust your gloves, get more pine tar. It’s the PLAYERS which is what I’ve said all along. And the umps for letting ’em get away with it.
Thanks Casey, but I want to make clear that I’m not discounting that slower working pitchers can make a big difference too. The difference between Josh Beckett and Mark Buehrle is 9 secs. per pitch. Multiply that times 100 and you’ve got a 15 minute difference. Certainly not insignificant.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-pace-time-between-pitches
I don’t know where last night’s pitchers rank, but I would say Burnett is on the slow side.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion Wally.
Hahaha – so I’m not the only one.
Getting back on track again here, let’s compare Yanks-Sox to Jays-O’s and say 1.67 pitches/minute is an acceptable pace. Then, the Yanks-Sox should have ended in 228 minutes, so it ran 33 minutes long. Since there were two more pitching changes, at 2 1/2 mins. per change, that accounts for 5 of the 33 minutes.
That leaves 28 mins. to account for. I just looked it up and Burnett and Lester average 24 secs. per pitch, compared to 21.5 for the average pitcher. At 2 1/2 secs. per pitch over 210 pitches between them, that’s roughly 9 additional minutes, leaving 19 mins. left to account for. Of course, that doesn’t take into account the relief pitchers, but that’s more than half the game there.
Is it safe to say that a national televised game adds 19 mins. to a broadcast? I don’t know, but we can definitely say that when you look at all the factors, last night’s game was not as outrageously long in comparison to the other games as Wally would like to believe. You just have to know what factors to look at.
I would say it has more to go with the fact that there’s so much more tension created by the grinding at bats, resulting in more catcher trips to the mound and possibly more pitching coach trips to the mound, in addition to the other factors.
Case closed, unless Wally wants to bring in some data of his own other than, “I watched the game, I saw with my own two eyes how many times Nick Swisher adjusts his crotch between pitches.”
Chas – I have no idea how you were able to respond without any evidence of exaggeration. 🙂
read this and weep – https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703843804575534102219239786.html
Thanks for the data … Chas. It took you quite a bit longer to post it than I expected … why is that?
Gee Wally – because Chas responded with actual facts as opposed to absurd exaggerations?
No … I was just kidding … you know, cuz he’s done all these time and motion studies on big league games … I thought … oh, forget it.
Ohhh…nowwww I get it. Nice try Wally. It was kind of clever, but when you have to explain it, well it falls flat.