Loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
Reader Interactions
Comments
bill ribassays
On Comedy Central, there was an hour of standup by Daniel Tosh, and he did a side about sports, how baseball is better with steroids, and then on how Babe Ruth was the greatest hitter. He was like, “Please, he never had to face CC throwing him a 90 plus slider, or so and so tossing him junk that he would never hit. And what about all the people that weren’t allowed to play back then? Blacks?”
We’ll never know, of course, but on the heels of the Offensive Players post (and that title raises a few ideas for posts as well), does anyone know if Ruth ever faced any fireballers, or could he hit say, Nolan Ryan in his prime?
Crossword Petesays
The best pitcher of Ruth’s time was probably Ruth, but I do believe he faced (successfully) Walter Johnson (was his nickname Big Train?), Chas will delve into the stats history I’m sure, but Johnson is considered on of the best fireballers of all time if I’m not mistaken.
Crossword Petesays
Didn’t Ruth also have to face spitballers? That might be tougher than fireballers.
Yes, of course, Walter Johnson, although by the time Ruth became a full-time hitter, Johnson was already 31.
I’m looking for historical batter vs. pitcher data, but the point is there were fireballers back in his day. Spitballers too. 1919 was the end of the deadball era, so Ruth had more of his offensive history after that.
But, the real point is about the level of the competition. Look, I’m pretty sure if you transported Babe Ruth to the modern day in a time machine, he wouldn’t dominate like he did his day. But, modern methods of athletic conditioning have a lot to do with that. You can only compare players to how they performed against players of their own time. I’m sure there are plenty of modern-day scientists who are smarter than Watson & Crick too.
The size of the talent pool is a different consideration. But, I’m pretty sure if you did a demographic study comparing the number of major league ballplayers to the size of the population pool they’re drawn from, it wouldn’t tell you that the talent pool was that weak as a percentage of the population (blacks excluded). Maybe by a little, yes.
There are twice as many teams today, but also probably more than twice as many people (including Latin American countries) to draw that major league talent from. But, it’s not a ridiculous difference…I don’t think. But, I’m not going to look for those statistics. 🙂
Wallysays
Chas —
You ranked the all-time greatest offensive players last week based on some type of scoring scale (I believe there must’ve been a number associated with each player). Would it be possible to show those scores say for the Top 20 players to demonstrate how superior Ruth was, especially vs his peers??? I was even more impressed with Ruth after I inquired about Ted Williams if he hadn’t missed a few years because of military service and you said if he hadn’t missed those prime years he only had a shot at getting to #2, possibly nudging ahead of Gehrig. Just feels like Ruth’s numbers are “out of this world”. Would be great to see them. Please?!?!
Wally, in that post, I provided a link to a spreadsheet with the numbers, but I’ll try a copy and paste here. The numbers are how many runs each player was better than a “replacement player” divided by his total plate appearances:
Babe Ruth 0.1640
Lou Gehrig 0.1381
Ted Williams 0.1359
Barry Bonds 0.1273
Dan Brouthers 0.1221
Mickey Mantle 0.1217
Ty Cobb 0.1194
Albert Pujols 0.1184
Rogers Hornsby 0.1178
Joe Jackson 0.1121
Billy Hamilton 0.1116
Jimmie Foxx 0.1082
Joe DiMaggio 0.1055
Ed Delahanty 0.1051
Willie Mays 0.1037
Tris Speaker 0.1035
Stan Musial 0.1029
Frank Thomas 0.1028
Hank Greenberg 0.1027
Mark McGwire 0.1016
0.164 divided by 0.1381 equals 1.19, meaning Ruth was 19% better than Gehrig by this measure. By comparison, Gehrig is 17% better than Hornsby, who’s #9 on the list. So, the gap between #1 and #2 is greater than the gap between #1 and #9.
Wallysays
Sorry, Chas, I often miss those linked in details. But thanks for displaying for all to see! As the numbers show, Babe Ruth is absolutely in a class by himself. Also … for our parents’ generation and those who often debated whether Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays was better, these numbers show that Mantle was ~17% better “Offensively” than Mays. Defense is another aspect, but my understanding is that Mantle was great in the field, too, until his knees starting failing.
Wallysays
It just occurred to me that Roberto Clemente was NOT on the Top 50 list, which is a big surprise, at least to me. So where does he rank?
Mays’s defense pulls him past Mantle if this was based on total value. The numbers say Mantle’s defense was good (although not as good as Mays) for the first half of his career, then there’s a drop-off after that. We’ll have to chalk that one up to what might have been.
This was such a time consuming process that, at some point, I stopped keeping track of anyone who scores below .08, so I don’t know exactly where Clemente would rank. But, his score was .069, which is still definitely very good. His value also gets a big boost from his defense, of course. One thing about Clemente is he didn’t walk much.
I’d say the two biggest factors that these statistics look at that would otherwise cause players to be misvalued (so to speak) are on-base percentage and defense. A lot of guys with high batting averages, but low walk rates and not overwhelming power are a little over-rated historically.
As far as defense is concerned, when it comes to historical greatness, I think we tend to only remember the Brooks Robinsons, Ozzie Smiths and Willie Mayses, but not the Ken Boyers, Alan Trammells and Bobby Griches.
Crossword Petesays
WOW! When you look at THOSE numbers Ruth is indeed in a world by himself. I think Chas meant “greater than the gap between #2 and #9” on his last post. As to Ruth, I have always assumed that he was a superior athlete who would have used that athletic ability along with the training of the times (heavy drinking I believe it was in his day) to dominate WHENEVER he lived. The only other athlete I believe that about is Jim Thorpe. There are MANY great athletic performers over time, but those are the only 2 who I believe could dominate in ANY era. There are probably some modern athletes who could do well going back in time, but I seldom think in that direction. Guys like Bo Jackson or Deion Sanders or Randy Moss or Joe Maurer or Dave DeBuscherre certainly come to mind. But I always wonder how much of their ability is training and how much is natural, as was Ruth’s and Thorpe’s.
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant to write. Thanks Pete. I didn’t even notice I made that mistake. I agree with everything else you wrote as well…although I really have no opinion on Dave DeBuscherre. 🙂
Wallysays
Although Ruth didn’t keep himself in exceptional physical shape, athletically he must’ve been incredibly gifted, at least from the waist up. To first pitch like he did (exceptionally well) and then become the GREATEST HITTER ever, he must’ve had an incredibly powerful left arm and extemely quick handspeed, not to mention terrific hand-eye coordination. You know how they say these days about the latest phenom … like a Jason Heyward, etc … that “the ball really pops off his bat”. Well the ball must’ve exploded off of Ruth’s bat. If anyone coulda pulled a Roy Hobbs trick … “hit the cover off the ball” … it was probably Ruth.
Re: Clemente and his lack of walks … maybe he was the first Latin American player to prove the axiom which attempts to explain the free-swinging tendancies of those players … “You can’t walk your way off the island.”
Crossword Petesays
DeBuscherre was the first major league two-sport player. He pitched for the Tigers and was a solid starter on the Knicks in the early ’70s when they won their last (I think) NBA championship. Because he was the first, and for the longest time the only, I expect he was an exceptional athlete, or at least deserves mention with those others who were somewhat successful in two major league sports. But as with the others, I don’t believe he could dominate.
Oh yeah, I forgot that DeBuscherre was a two-sport star. Surprisingly, I know him as a basketball player, not a baseball player.
Speaking of two-sport players, the other day I mentioned to the wife that Danny Ainge was an infielder for the Blue Jays. Not surprisingly, she didn’t know that. I wouldn’t consider him one of the more obscure two-sport guys.
I would consider him one of the more obscure two-sport guys, that is.
Wallysays
Or was George “Papa Bear” Halas the first “two-major league-sport player” ?? Not necessarily a “star”, but did ya know that he played a little RF for the Yankees before Ruth got there? Halas had quite a full and remarkable life”. You might learn something from this link.
Did not know that about Papa Bear! Correcting myself; DeBuscherre played for the CWS, not Tigers and he had some good games but he was by no means a baseball star, whereas he was voted one of the top 50 NBA players.
Crossword Petesays
Halas was indeed quite the man. I just read the link. Made me think of two-sport college athletes. Edward “Moose” Krause of ND was All-American in both basketball and football if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure there were several others, though no names are coming to mind at the moment. Going to look up Krause’s accomplishments.
Crossword Petesays
Krause is ND HOF in BB and FB, but only All-American (3 time) in BB. He lettered in 4 sports at ND (baseball and track). There must be others who were that accomplished. Any names?
Wallysays
Pete … maybe you also knew about ND’s Ron Reed … NBA and MLB. See link
I didn’t know he was ND. I know he was listed in a DeBuscherre bio as one of several players who played in both leagues. Was he much of an NBA player? I think he had a notable career in MLB.
Wallysays
Pretty good MLB pitcher … but just a cup of coffee really in the NBA. (see the link). I think his college careers would reverse that … more reknowned for hoops at ND vs baseball.
What year did you graduate from ND???
Crossword Petesays
Reed was ND just before I got there, but I did not follow ND basketball until I got there. the only pre-student player name I can remember is Tom Thackeray. Going to look him up now to see if my memory even serves me correctly. There’s another name hanging on the edges of my mind; Hawkins. Bet he’s from Thackeray’s era. Shall see.
Crossword Petesays
Tom Hawkins, first African American star at ND. Tom Thackeray, a figment of my imagination apparently! I make things up!
Wallysays
You might be thinking about Tom Hawkins … he was probably one of ND’s best all-time hoops players … easily Top 10 I would guesstimate. Did he make the big bucket to end UCLA’s big winning streak???
Crossword Petesays
David Rivers made that UCLA bucket (or Gary Brokaw) – 1975. Hawkins was late ’50s at ND. I’m in my ND basketball yearbook. No Thackeray on the all-time roster. Geez, where did I ever come up with it?
Crossword Petesays
Finally! Tom Thacker played with Cincinnati in early ’60s with Paul Hogue and Ron Bonham on a team that TWICE upset Jerry Lucas and Ohio State for the national championship. Thackeray must be William Makepeace. Memory is certainly a fickle thing.
Crossword Petesays
Brokaw was on the ND team vs UCLA, but not Rivers. It was Dwight Clay who hit the game icer.
Wallysays
Right … Dwight Clay … I shoulda known that.
Wallysays
David Rivers graduated a year or two after I did (’86), so I saw him play several times. They had some pretty good teams in those years, but could never sneak past the Sweet 16 if memory is correct. Tim Kempton, Jim Dolan, Ken Barlow, Scot Hicks, et al. And Digger of course.
Crossword Petesays
Not many people realize that much like in football. ND is among the NCAA leaders in basketball wins and winning percentage. Digger was one of the most famous coaches, but John Jordan (got ND its first national rankings) and Krause were quite successful as well. Probably the best was Goerge Keogan (1920s to 1940s) . Winning percentage of .771 and all time wins leader at ND (327). In the early 2000s ND was ranked #19 of teams with appearances in the rankings. We’ve always been a basketball school, but overshadowed by football.
Wallysays
NIce game by the Irish last night beating Cinci quite soundly. Now if they can manage to beat Lou’ville tonight (they also played well), ND may be able to nab a #1 seed, esp since Pitt lost in round 1. It’s still hard for me to believe I just wrote those words. What a season!
Don’t know where else to put this, but I loved that Griffin came out and defended Jeff Capel. He said:
“What bothers me the most is that everyone is saying he did all of this when Blake Griffin was there,” Griffin said. “Well to me, you say he deserves no credit when a certain player is there and then, when things go bad, throw all the blame on him. To me, they’re piling it on. He took over the program after Kelvin Sampson and all of those sanctions and he put his faith in everyone. This is what he gets? Within two years we’re in the tournament and now two years later he’s fired? It’s completely unfair.”
I like it. So we can’t give you credit when you have good players and you succeed with them, but you’re to blame when you fail with players who are not superstars.
I saw this coming when Capel started having trouble the season after Griffin. Guys like Willie Warren who thought he was the man were not willing to do the work.
On the bright side – can you see Capel at G Tech or NC State? Where does Dino Gaudio fit in the mix?
Loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
On Comedy Central, there was an hour of standup by Daniel Tosh, and he did a side about sports, how baseball is better with steroids, and then on how Babe Ruth was the greatest hitter. He was like, “Please, he never had to face CC throwing him a 90 plus slider, or so and so tossing him junk that he would never hit. And what about all the people that weren’t allowed to play back then? Blacks?”
We’ll never know, of course, but on the heels of the Offensive Players post (and that title raises a few ideas for posts as well), does anyone know if Ruth ever faced any fireballers, or could he hit say, Nolan Ryan in his prime?
The best pitcher of Ruth’s time was probably Ruth, but I do believe he faced (successfully) Walter Johnson (was his nickname Big Train?), Chas will delve into the stats history I’m sure, but Johnson is considered on of the best fireballers of all time if I’m not mistaken.
Didn’t Ruth also have to face spitballers? That might be tougher than fireballers.
…and a “dead” ball.
and no pine tar or batting gloves or…
Yes, of course, Walter Johnson, although by the time Ruth became a full-time hitter, Johnson was already 31.
I’m looking for historical batter vs. pitcher data, but the point is there were fireballers back in his day. Spitballers too. 1919 was the end of the deadball era, so Ruth had more of his offensive history after that.
But, the real point is about the level of the competition. Look, I’m pretty sure if you transported Babe Ruth to the modern day in a time machine, he wouldn’t dominate like he did his day. But, modern methods of athletic conditioning have a lot to do with that. You can only compare players to how they performed against players of their own time. I’m sure there are plenty of modern-day scientists who are smarter than Watson & Crick too.
The size of the talent pool is a different consideration. But, I’m pretty sure if you did a demographic study comparing the number of major league ballplayers to the size of the population pool they’re drawn from, it wouldn’t tell you that the talent pool was that weak as a percentage of the population (blacks excluded). Maybe by a little, yes.
There are twice as many teams today, but also probably more than twice as many people (including Latin American countries) to draw that major league talent from. But, it’s not a ridiculous difference…I don’t think. But, I’m not going to look for those statistics. 🙂
Chas —
You ranked the all-time greatest offensive players last week based on some type of scoring scale (I believe there must’ve been a number associated with each player). Would it be possible to show those scores say for the Top 20 players to demonstrate how superior Ruth was, especially vs his peers??? I was even more impressed with Ruth after I inquired about Ted Williams if he hadn’t missed a few years because of military service and you said if he hadn’t missed those prime years he only had a shot at getting to #2, possibly nudging ahead of Gehrig. Just feels like Ruth’s numbers are “out of this world”. Would be great to see them. Please?!?!
Wally, in that post, I provided a link to a spreadsheet with the numbers, but I’ll try a copy and paste here. The numbers are how many runs each player was better than a “replacement player” divided by his total plate appearances:
Babe Ruth 0.1640
Lou Gehrig 0.1381
Ted Williams 0.1359
Barry Bonds 0.1273
Dan Brouthers 0.1221
Mickey Mantle 0.1217
Ty Cobb 0.1194
Albert Pujols 0.1184
Rogers Hornsby 0.1178
Joe Jackson 0.1121
Billy Hamilton 0.1116
Jimmie Foxx 0.1082
Joe DiMaggio 0.1055
Ed Delahanty 0.1051
Willie Mays 0.1037
Tris Speaker 0.1035
Stan Musial 0.1029
Frank Thomas 0.1028
Hank Greenberg 0.1027
Mark McGwire 0.1016
0.164 divided by 0.1381 equals 1.19, meaning Ruth was 19% better than Gehrig by this measure. By comparison, Gehrig is 17% better than Hornsby, who’s #9 on the list. So, the gap between #1 and #2 is greater than the gap between #1 and #9.
Sorry, Chas, I often miss those linked in details. But thanks for displaying for all to see! As the numbers show, Babe Ruth is absolutely in a class by himself. Also … for our parents’ generation and those who often debated whether Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays was better, these numbers show that Mantle was ~17% better “Offensively” than Mays. Defense is another aspect, but my understanding is that Mantle was great in the field, too, until his knees starting failing.
It just occurred to me that Roberto Clemente was NOT on the Top 50 list, which is a big surprise, at least to me. So where does he rank?
Mays’s defense pulls him past Mantle if this was based on total value. The numbers say Mantle’s defense was good (although not as good as Mays) for the first half of his career, then there’s a drop-off after that. We’ll have to chalk that one up to what might have been.
This was such a time consuming process that, at some point, I stopped keeping track of anyone who scores below .08, so I don’t know exactly where Clemente would rank. But, his score was .069, which is still definitely very good. His value also gets a big boost from his defense, of course. One thing about Clemente is he didn’t walk much.
I’d say the two biggest factors that these statistics look at that would otherwise cause players to be misvalued (so to speak) are on-base percentage and defense. A lot of guys with high batting averages, but low walk rates and not overwhelming power are a little over-rated historically.
As far as defense is concerned, when it comes to historical greatness, I think we tend to only remember the Brooks Robinsons, Ozzie Smiths and Willie Mayses, but not the Ken Boyers, Alan Trammells and Bobby Griches.
WOW! When you look at THOSE numbers Ruth is indeed in a world by himself. I think Chas meant “greater than the gap between #2 and #9” on his last post. As to Ruth, I have always assumed that he was a superior athlete who would have used that athletic ability along with the training of the times (heavy drinking I believe it was in his day) to dominate WHENEVER he lived. The only other athlete I believe that about is Jim Thorpe. There are MANY great athletic performers over time, but those are the only 2 who I believe could dominate in ANY era. There are probably some modern athletes who could do well going back in time, but I seldom think in that direction. Guys like Bo Jackson or Deion Sanders or Randy Moss or Joe Maurer or Dave DeBuscherre certainly come to mind. But I always wonder how much of their ability is training and how much is natural, as was Ruth’s and Thorpe’s.
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant to write. Thanks Pete. I didn’t even notice I made that mistake. I agree with everything else you wrote as well…although I really have no opinion on Dave DeBuscherre. 🙂
Although Ruth didn’t keep himself in exceptional physical shape, athletically he must’ve been incredibly gifted, at least from the waist up. To first pitch like he did (exceptionally well) and then become the GREATEST HITTER ever, he must’ve had an incredibly powerful left arm and extemely quick handspeed, not to mention terrific hand-eye coordination. You know how they say these days about the latest phenom … like a Jason Heyward, etc … that “the ball really pops off his bat”. Well the ball must’ve exploded off of Ruth’s bat. If anyone coulda pulled a Roy Hobbs trick … “hit the cover off the ball” … it was probably Ruth.
Re: Clemente and his lack of walks … maybe he was the first Latin American player to prove the axiom which attempts to explain the free-swinging tendancies of those players … “You can’t walk your way off the island.”
DeBuscherre was the first major league two-sport player. He pitched for the Tigers and was a solid starter on the Knicks in the early ’70s when they won their last (I think) NBA championship. Because he was the first, and for the longest time the only, I expect he was an exceptional athlete, or at least deserves mention with those others who were somewhat successful in two major league sports. But as with the others, I don’t believe he could dominate.
Oh yeah, I forgot that DeBuscherre was a two-sport star. Surprisingly, I know him as a basketball player, not a baseball player.
Speaking of two-sport players, the other day I mentioned to the wife that Danny Ainge was an infielder for the Blue Jays. Not surprisingly, she didn’t know that. I wouldn’t consider him one of the more obscure two-sport guys.
I would consider him one of the more obscure two-sport guys, that is.
Or was George “Papa Bear” Halas the first “two-major league-sport player” ?? Not necessarily a “star”, but did ya know that he played a little RF for the Yankees before Ruth got there? Halas had quite a full and remarkable life”. You might learn something from this link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Halas
Oh yeahhhhh….good call, Wally.
Did not know that about Papa Bear! Correcting myself; DeBuscherre played for the CWS, not Tigers and he had some good games but he was by no means a baseball star, whereas he was voted one of the top 50 NBA players.
Halas was indeed quite the man. I just read the link. Made me think of two-sport college athletes. Edward “Moose” Krause of ND was All-American in both basketball and football if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure there were several others, though no names are coming to mind at the moment. Going to look up Krause’s accomplishments.
Krause is ND HOF in BB and FB, but only All-American (3 time) in BB. He lettered in 4 sports at ND (baseball and track). There must be others who were that accomplished. Any names?
Pete … maybe you also knew about ND’s Ron Reed … NBA and MLB. See link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Reed
I didn’t know he was ND. I know he was listed in a DeBuscherre bio as one of several players who played in both leagues. Was he much of an NBA player? I think he had a notable career in MLB.
Pretty good MLB pitcher … but just a cup of coffee really in the NBA. (see the link). I think his college careers would reverse that … more reknowned for hoops at ND vs baseball.
What year did you graduate from ND???
Reed was ND just before I got there, but I did not follow ND basketball until I got there. the only pre-student player name I can remember is Tom Thackeray. Going to look him up now to see if my memory even serves me correctly. There’s another name hanging on the edges of my mind; Hawkins. Bet he’s from Thackeray’s era. Shall see.
Tom Hawkins, first African American star at ND. Tom Thackeray, a figment of my imagination apparently! I make things up!
You might be thinking about Tom Hawkins … he was probably one of ND’s best all-time hoops players … easily Top 10 I would guesstimate. Did he make the big bucket to end UCLA’s big winning streak???
David Rivers made that UCLA bucket (or Gary Brokaw) – 1975. Hawkins was late ’50s at ND. I’m in my ND basketball yearbook. No Thackeray on the all-time roster. Geez, where did I ever come up with it?
Finally! Tom Thacker played with Cincinnati in early ’60s with Paul Hogue and Ron Bonham on a team that TWICE upset Jerry Lucas and Ohio State for the national championship. Thackeray must be William Makepeace. Memory is certainly a fickle thing.
Brokaw was on the ND team vs UCLA, but not Rivers. It was Dwight Clay who hit the game icer.
Right … Dwight Clay … I shoulda known that.
David Rivers graduated a year or two after I did (’86), so I saw him play several times. They had some pretty good teams in those years, but could never sneak past the Sweet 16 if memory is correct. Tim Kempton, Jim Dolan, Ken Barlow, Scot Hicks, et al. And Digger of course.
Not many people realize that much like in football. ND is among the NCAA leaders in basketball wins and winning percentage. Digger was one of the most famous coaches, but John Jordan (got ND its first national rankings) and Krause were quite successful as well. Probably the best was Goerge Keogan (1920s to 1940s) . Winning percentage of .771 and all time wins leader at ND (327). In the early 2000s ND was ranked #19 of teams with appearances in the rankings. We’ve always been a basketball school, but overshadowed by football.
NIce game by the Irish last night beating Cinci quite soundly. Now if they can manage to beat Lou’ville tonight (they also played well), ND may be able to nab a #1 seed, esp since Pitt lost in round 1. It’s still hard for me to believe I just wrote those words. What a season!
Don’t know where else to put this, but I loved that Griffin came out and defended Jeff Capel. He said:
“What bothers me the most is that everyone is saying he did all of this when Blake Griffin was there,” Griffin said. “Well to me, you say he deserves no credit when a certain player is there and then, when things go bad, throw all the blame on him. To me, they’re piling it on. He took over the program after Kelvin Sampson and all of those sanctions and he put his faith in everyone. This is what he gets? Within two years we’re in the tournament and now two years later he’s fired? It’s completely unfair.”
I like it. So we can’t give you credit when you have good players and you succeed with them, but you’re to blame when you fail with players who are not superstars.
I saw this coming when Capel started having trouble the season after Griffin. Guys like Willie Warren who thought he was the man were not willing to do the work.
On the bright side – can you see Capel at G Tech or NC State? Where does Dino Gaudio fit in the mix?