Okay loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
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Wallysays
To my delight … and probably for most ND fans … Michigan football is in a huge bind. If they really suspected they would fire RichRod, they did it too late. Not only is the next recruiting class (Feb 2011 commits) gonna suffer terribly due to the chaos/uncertainty, but their current roster may well be ill-suited to the offensive style of whoever the new coach turns out to be. Even if it’s Harbaugh (doubtful), he doesn’t run the spread offense.
I know LSU’s Les Miles has been mentioned … certainly a “Michigan Man” … but I wonder if he’s perceived to be too much of a nut job to be taken seriously. Then there’s the guy at SD State … Bradey Hoke? …. who once coached for the Skunkbears. Not sure who the other potential candidates are … but whoever gets the job, they will be squarely behind the 8 ball coming in. Anyway, it will be fun to watch the squirming in Ann Arbor for some time to come! Tee hee 🙂
-Jim Harbaugh. I have to ask: No desire to stay at Stanford and try for a national championship? I mean, they were so close this year and it seems like with their renewed success and the new challenges ahead for the PAC-10 that he’ll continue to get recruits and compete. I guess the NFL will be able to provide a much better paycheck. And the thing to me is also job security. NFL teams want success within 2 years, 3 for bad teams or you’re gone. This guy is absolutely beloved at Stanford. I’d ride it out, see what the next five years might entail.
-Mark McGwire lost votes this year. That makes me happy. I agree with Chas when he says we have to take the steriods-era guys on a case-by-case basis. In McGwire and Bonds’ case, they can go ahead and keep their records; no asterisk. But please let’s keep their busts out of Cooperstown. And speaking of HOFers, any chance Roberto Alomar’s bust will be in mid-spitting form? Just a question.
-Rich Rod out at Michigan. A lot people thought this was not going to work out. I am not a football guy but have been around a program recently that decided to dump its traditional yet successful power I formation for the spread. It did not work out. I haven’t watched Michigan much, but it seems to me that when you spread the field your offensive line becomes nothing more than a blob who just has to pick up any flow towards their area. Granted the WRs become good blockers and the RBs, too, But hasn’t this posed a problem in short yardage situations and the red zone? How much have those Mich. guards and tackles worked on different types of footwork during practice (pulling)? I know they’re DI athletes and should be able to do these things, but drill and repetition wouldn’t be there if all your offense does it spread, right? I know the defense was terrible but it just seems like the spread offense has gone through this fad and has fizzled out to the degree that a lot of teams have it, but it isn’t their main look. Maybe I’m wrong.
-Hedo and the Magic. Again, going back to Harbaugh: why are sports figures so quick to leave a good thing that is working? Hedo looks like he has never left the Magic and is returning to that Point-Forward guy that Dwight needs. And the one thing the stat sheet can’t show is chemistry and that intuitiveness you just have with certain guys. The Magic were a great TEAM. Regardless of Dwight’s lack of any skill other than dunking, Hedo’s slow footing and lack of explosion, and Jameer Nelson’s full 5’9″ stature – they just know each other. Why the heck did you ever leave, Hedo????
-From the time I went to Penn State, every time a college coach (football or basketball) left a storied program to go to the pros, my Dad would always wonder why the guy would want to leave a place where he’s revered so much, and where his reputation practically ensures his continued success for the grind and pressure of the pro level. Obviously, Joe Paterno was/is his poster boy. I guess the answer is that some guys are more driven and competitive than others. Or, rather driven and competitive in different ways. Of course, Paterno is competitive, but he probably realized, at some point, that his competitive advantage was in being a leader, recruiter, and motivator of young people rather than an Xs and Os football coach. A lot of coaches have left the college ranks for the pros only to end up back in college football again several years later. I guess what it comes down to is, “to each his own,” and some guys just can’t resist their desire to be successful at the highest level, the pros.
Rey, when I said steroids-era guys need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, what I really meant was steroids-implicated guys need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. In other words, anyone deemed to have produced a Hall of Fame career because of steroids is out, but if they were Hall of Famers regardless of steroids, they still get in. McGwire may be in the former category. Bonds would be in the latter.
I got ya, Chas. Point well made, and I agree 100% with that assessment. Bonds was on his way as a 180-pound Pirate anyway. I still will be happy if he never gets there though.
And on these uber-competitive guys, I get it. I just think there are some situations that sometimes defy logic (if such logic exists in the sports world).
Great piece. Are you trying to make me feel bad for my comment, Chas? Even though I made the comment, I did as a joke. I wouldn’t be one to keep someone out of such a prestigious club that they deserve because of one poor transgression. Cool to see that Alomar now donates Hirschbeck’s sons’ charity/cause.
On the Magic – now, if they could just get Courtney Lee back. Who did they trade him for? Oh yeah, that’s right Vince “anti-inertia” Carter. I never understood that trade. Everyone was saying the Magic needed to do that to make up for Turkoglu’s loss. Yeah that worked really well. They took a team that was a missed Lee lay up at the buzzer and 2 Howard misses at the line from winning the title. Carter is everything the Magic are not. He is lazy on defense, and his idea of offense is iso.
Jim Harbaugh – I, too, have never understood the need to keep moving on. Right now, he has recruiting set up so he could dominate the West Coast.
Wallysays
The topic of Jim Harbaugh … why might he want to leave a CURRENTLY great situation at Stanford?
a) Much more money in the NFL
b) The challenge of succeeding at the highest level … and the challenge of doing better than his brother who coaches the Ravens
c) Andrew Luck will be leaving soon
d) Stanford has never been able to sustain football excellence. There’s got to be some underlaying reasons for that … tough admissions standards, a fan/alumni base that reportedly is less than rabid, university priorities/philosophy. ND’s academic admissions standards for athletes are pretty tough, but Stanford’s are higher … more like Northwestern, etc.
After several years of being a head coach either at NFL or major college level, I would think money becomes less of an issue. (Heck … once you have $10 mil in your bank account, aren’t you and future gens set for life?) Harbaugh, though, hasn’t been at it long enough to have earned the MEGA MEGA bucks yet, but he could probably get there by staying at Stanford another 5 years. I heard a report this morning that NFL teams are prepared to compensate him near levels of the highest paid NFL coaches. He could make $35M over 5 years …. pretty hard to ignore. Stanford or Michigan might pay $2-3 per year.
Casey —
Hard to imagine Stanford “dominating” West coast & California recruiting for several years. USC will eventually emerge from their issues and we’ll see what keeps happening at Oregon and Washington. They’ll have a great class coming in 2011 (if Harbaugh stays), but after that it will likely tail off.
Wasn’t trying to make you feel guilty, Rey. I just thought that article summarized all the different angles to that story. I also thought that what Davey Johnson said spoke volumes: ”I think they’re both guilty.”
But, no matter what Hirschbeck says, Alomar will always be remembered for that, and I guess that’s the price he has to pay for losing his cool in a way I’ve never seen before or since.
Wallysays
Anyone else see this?
Beginning with this weekend’s NFL playoff games, there’s a new overtime rule for scoring. If a team kicks a field goal after receiving the overtime kickoff, the opponent will have a chance to match that field goal or score a touchdown to win the game. If both teams kick field goals, or the first team fails to score, the game reverts to sudden death. If a team opens overtime with a touchdown drive, the game will be over.
Begs the question … Why wasn’t the entire season played under this rule? Seems quite awkward and clumsy to change now. I’d prefer something similar to the college rule, but with modifications: both teams get a chance to have the ball on offense… but they start at the 50 yd line instead of the 25. Keep doing this until someone wins, just like the college rules.
Thought I’d share this, mainly for Wally’s benefit. My friend Joe is even more knowledgeable about all things HOF than I am. Discussing in an email with him what next year might look like, here are his rambling thoughts:
“The VC (Veterans Committee) will be voting on the 1947-1972 era. I feel confident Ron Santo will get elected since he is dead. I think Larkin will get in. Bagwell and Morris may get a huge jump too but doubt they will get 75%. They may elect a manager or something too like Danny Murtaugh. Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva or Billy Pierce could surprise if they make the VC ballot. Kaat could be a good bet since Blyleven is in.”
I think he’s overly optimistic about the VC stuff, but it would be awesome if Santo finally got in. I was also surprised at his mention of Billy Pierce. Can you imagine if Ron Santo and Pierce or Dick Allen got inducted in the same year? All those folks from Chicago who don’t necessarily like each other.
Wallysays
Chas —
Thanks for posting this. Ya know, why is it that they make people wait til they’re dead and then put them in. So … poor Ron Santo goes to his grave not knowing that he’s a HoFer (or so we think that will be the case). Why does confidence go up when someone dies???? Boy that ticks me off!!! You’re either a HoFer or you’re not.
Danny Murtaugh? I know the Pirates won a title with him, but was he that good a manager over the long haul?
As much as Dick Allen was a boyhood hero of mine, he’s not really HoF caliber, is he? I saw brilliance for about 4-5 years tops … that’s not enough in my book. Willing to hear a debate though.
Wallysays
The Jim Harbaugh plot thickens as Andrew Luck decides to stay for one more year at Stanford. Now that’s surprising. Maybe they can win the title next year if Jimbo stays. Hmmmm. I say there’s NO WAY Harbaugh even thinks about taking the Skunkbear job now. Tee hee 🙂
All eligible managers with three or more World Series wins are in the HOF. Of those with two, 6 of 11 are in the Hall. There are four “active” managers with two or more: Joe Torre, Terry Francona, Tony LaRussa, Cito Gaston.
Torre’s a lock, LaRussa’s pretty close to a lock (or maybe he already is), and I think Francona will make it as well, as long as he racks up a few hundred more victories. Two World Series for the Red Sox? That’s pretty legendary.
Take a look at Dick Allen’s numbers, especially from 1964 to 1974:
There’s a lot of black ink there, and every year he had an OPS+ of 145 or greater. Tell me he’s not similar, and probably better, to/than Jim Rice. Other than fewer 100 RBI seasons, that is.
Wallysays
Thanks, Chas. Good stuff. I was too young to catch those ’64 to ’69 years for Dick Allen esp if he wasn’t with the White Sox. My sports memories essentially start in ’70. He really is worthy of some discussion.
Okay loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
To my delight … and probably for most ND fans … Michigan football is in a huge bind. If they really suspected they would fire RichRod, they did it too late. Not only is the next recruiting class (Feb 2011 commits) gonna suffer terribly due to the chaos/uncertainty, but their current roster may well be ill-suited to the offensive style of whoever the new coach turns out to be. Even if it’s Harbaugh (doubtful), he doesn’t run the spread offense.
I know LSU’s Les Miles has been mentioned … certainly a “Michigan Man” … but I wonder if he’s perceived to be too much of a nut job to be taken seriously. Then there’s the guy at SD State … Bradey Hoke? …. who once coached for the Skunkbears. Not sure who the other potential candidates are … but whoever gets the job, they will be squarely behind the 8 ball coming in. Anyway, it will be fun to watch the squirming in Ann Arbor for some time to come! Tee hee 🙂
A few random thoughts for OTT…
-Jim Harbaugh. I have to ask: No desire to stay at Stanford and try for a national championship? I mean, they were so close this year and it seems like with their renewed success and the new challenges ahead for the PAC-10 that he’ll continue to get recruits and compete. I guess the NFL will be able to provide a much better paycheck. And the thing to me is also job security. NFL teams want success within 2 years, 3 for bad teams or you’re gone. This guy is absolutely beloved at Stanford. I’d ride it out, see what the next five years might entail.
-Mark McGwire lost votes this year. That makes me happy. I agree with Chas when he says we have to take the steriods-era guys on a case-by-case basis. In McGwire and Bonds’ case, they can go ahead and keep their records; no asterisk. But please let’s keep their busts out of Cooperstown. And speaking of HOFers, any chance Roberto Alomar’s bust will be in mid-spitting form? Just a question.
-Rich Rod out at Michigan. A lot people thought this was not going to work out. I am not a football guy but have been around a program recently that decided to dump its traditional yet successful power I formation for the spread. It did not work out. I haven’t watched Michigan much, but it seems to me that when you spread the field your offensive line becomes nothing more than a blob who just has to pick up any flow towards their area. Granted the WRs become good blockers and the RBs, too, But hasn’t this posed a problem in short yardage situations and the red zone? How much have those Mich. guards and tackles worked on different types of footwork during practice (pulling)? I know they’re DI athletes and should be able to do these things, but drill and repetition wouldn’t be there if all your offense does it spread, right? I know the defense was terrible but it just seems like the spread offense has gone through this fad and has fizzled out to the degree that a lot of teams have it, but it isn’t their main look. Maybe I’m wrong.
-Hedo and the Magic. Again, going back to Harbaugh: why are sports figures so quick to leave a good thing that is working? Hedo looks like he has never left the Magic and is returning to that Point-Forward guy that Dwight needs. And the one thing the stat sheet can’t show is chemistry and that intuitiveness you just have with certain guys. The Magic were a great TEAM. Regardless of Dwight’s lack of any skill other than dunking, Hedo’s slow footing and lack of explosion, and Jameer Nelson’s full 5’9″ stature – they just know each other. Why the heck did you ever leave, Hedo????
Regarding a couple topics Rey brought up:
-From the time I went to Penn State, every time a college coach (football or basketball) left a storied program to go to the pros, my Dad would always wonder why the guy would want to leave a place where he’s revered so much, and where his reputation practically ensures his continued success for the grind and pressure of the pro level. Obviously, Joe Paterno was/is his poster boy. I guess the answer is that some guys are more driven and competitive than others. Or, rather driven and competitive in different ways. Of course, Paterno is competitive, but he probably realized, at some point, that his competitive advantage was in being a leader, recruiter, and motivator of young people rather than an Xs and Os football coach. A lot of coaches have left the college ranks for the pros only to end up back in college football again several years later. I guess what it comes down to is, “to each his own,” and some guys just can’t resist their desire to be successful at the highest level, the pros.
Rey, when I said steroids-era guys need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, what I really meant was steroids-implicated guys need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. In other words, anyone deemed to have produced a Hall of Fame career because of steroids is out, but if they were Hall of Famers regardless of steroids, they still get in. McGwire may be in the former category. Bonds would be in the latter.
I got ya, Chas. Point well made, and I agree 100% with that assessment. Bonds was on his way as a 180-pound Pirate anyway. I still will be happy if he never gets there though.
And on these uber-competitive guys, I get it. I just think there are some situations that sometimes defy logic (if such logic exists in the sports world).
Interesting article on the Alomar-Hirschbeck incident:
https://www.inhistoric.com/2010/9/27/1001848/9-27-1996-alomar-spits-at-hirschbeck
Great piece. Are you trying to make me feel bad for my comment, Chas? Even though I made the comment, I did as a joke. I wouldn’t be one to keep someone out of such a prestigious club that they deserve because of one poor transgression. Cool to see that Alomar now donates Hirschbeck’s sons’ charity/cause.
Is it working?
On the Magic – now, if they could just get Courtney Lee back. Who did they trade him for? Oh yeah, that’s right Vince “anti-inertia” Carter. I never understood that trade. Everyone was saying the Magic needed to do that to make up for Turkoglu’s loss. Yeah that worked really well. They took a team that was a missed Lee lay up at the buzzer and 2 Howard misses at the line from winning the title. Carter is everything the Magic are not. He is lazy on defense, and his idea of offense is iso.
Jim Harbaugh – I, too, have never understood the need to keep moving on. Right now, he has recruiting set up so he could dominate the West Coast.
The topic of Jim Harbaugh … why might he want to leave a CURRENTLY great situation at Stanford?
a) Much more money in the NFL
b) The challenge of succeeding at the highest level … and the challenge of doing better than his brother who coaches the Ravens
c) Andrew Luck will be leaving soon
d) Stanford has never been able to sustain football excellence. There’s got to be some underlaying reasons for that … tough admissions standards, a fan/alumni base that reportedly is less than rabid, university priorities/philosophy. ND’s academic admissions standards for athletes are pretty tough, but Stanford’s are higher … more like Northwestern, etc.
After several years of being a head coach either at NFL or major college level, I would think money becomes less of an issue. (Heck … once you have $10 mil in your bank account, aren’t you and future gens set for life?) Harbaugh, though, hasn’t been at it long enough to have earned the MEGA MEGA bucks yet, but he could probably get there by staying at Stanford another 5 years. I heard a report this morning that NFL teams are prepared to compensate him near levels of the highest paid NFL coaches. He could make $35M over 5 years …. pretty hard to ignore. Stanford or Michigan might pay $2-3 per year.
Casey —
Hard to imagine Stanford “dominating” West coast & California recruiting for several years. USC will eventually emerge from their issues and we’ll see what keeps happening at Oregon and Washington. They’ll have a great class coming in 2011 (if Harbaugh stays), but after that it will likely tail off.
Wasn’t trying to make you feel guilty, Rey. I just thought that article summarized all the different angles to that story. I also thought that what Davey Johnson said spoke volumes: ”I think they’re both guilty.”
But, no matter what Hirschbeck says, Alomar will always be remembered for that, and I guess that’s the price he has to pay for losing his cool in a way I’ve never seen before or since.
Anyone else see this?
Beginning with this weekend’s NFL playoff games, there’s a new overtime rule for scoring. If a team kicks a field goal after receiving the overtime kickoff, the opponent will have a chance to match that field goal or score a touchdown to win the game. If both teams kick field goals, or the first team fails to score, the game reverts to sudden death. If a team opens overtime with a touchdown drive, the game will be over.
Begs the question … Why wasn’t the entire season played under this rule? Seems quite awkward and clumsy to change now. I’d prefer something similar to the college rule, but with modifications: both teams get a chance to have the ball on offense… but they start at the 50 yd line instead of the 25. Keep doing this until someone wins, just like the college rules.
It’s like the NFL released their inner Bud Selig.
Ha! Good one! That’s a helmet sticker 🙂
Thought I’d share this, mainly for Wally’s benefit. My friend Joe is even more knowledgeable about all things HOF than I am. Discussing in an email with him what next year might look like, here are his rambling thoughts:
“The VC (Veterans Committee) will be voting on the 1947-1972 era. I feel confident Ron Santo will get elected since he is dead. I think Larkin will get in. Bagwell and Morris may get a huge jump too but doubt they will get 75%. They may elect a manager or something too like Danny Murtaugh. Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva or Billy Pierce could surprise if they make the VC ballot. Kaat could be a good bet since Blyleven is in.”
I think he’s overly optimistic about the VC stuff, but it would be awesome if Santo finally got in. I was also surprised at his mention of Billy Pierce. Can you imagine if Ron Santo and Pierce or Dick Allen got inducted in the same year? All those folks from Chicago who don’t necessarily like each other.
Chas —
Thanks for posting this. Ya know, why is it that they make people wait til they’re dead and then put them in. So … poor Ron Santo goes to his grave not knowing that he’s a HoFer (or so we think that will be the case). Why does confidence go up when someone dies???? Boy that ticks me off!!! You’re either a HoFer or you’re not.
Danny Murtaugh? I know the Pirates won a title with him, but was he that good a manager over the long haul?
As much as Dick Allen was a boyhood hero of mine, he’s not really HoF caliber, is he? I saw brilliance for about 4-5 years tops … that’s not enough in my book. Willing to hear a debate though.
The Jim Harbaugh plot thickens as Andrew Luck decides to stay for one more year at Stanford. Now that’s surprising. Maybe they can win the title next year if Jimbo stays. Hmmmm. I say there’s NO WAY Harbaugh even thinks about taking the Skunkbear job now. Tee hee 🙂
Wally – I’m not sure why, when someone dies, it helps their HOF candidacy. Doesn’t make much sense to me either.
I also don’t really know what the argument is for Danny Murtaugh, but here’s how he compares to Whitey Herzog:
Herzog: 18 years, 1281 wins, .532 W-L%, 1 WS, 3 pennants
Murtaugh: 15 years, 1115 wins, .540 W-L%, 2 WS, 2 pennants
All eligible managers with three or more World Series wins are in the HOF. Of those with two, 6 of 11 are in the Hall. There are four “active” managers with two or more: Joe Torre, Terry Francona, Tony LaRussa, Cito Gaston.
Torre’s a lock, LaRussa’s pretty close to a lock (or maybe he already is), and I think Francona will make it as well, as long as he racks up a few hundred more victories. Two World Series for the Red Sox? That’s pretty legendary.
Take a look at Dick Allen’s numbers, especially from 1964 to 1974:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/allendi01.shtml
There’s a lot of black ink there, and every year he had an OPS+ of 145 or greater. Tell me he’s not similar, and probably better, to/than Jim Rice. Other than fewer 100 RBI seasons, that is.
Thanks, Chas. Good stuff. I was too young to catch those ’64 to ’69 years for Dick Allen esp if he wasn’t with the White Sox. My sports memories essentially start in ’70. He really is worthy of some discussion.