By Paul Casey Gotham
****Remember, try this without research. That is, make like Wally and release your inner James Joyce. Show us your stream of consciousness as you try to decipher the answer.
Who says the mark of a great player is the number of championship teams he plays on? I have read all of your comments here on the Pine extolling the virtues of championships. Or, should I say chan’ships? Hmpf! Tell you what. I am known as one of the best to ever play my position, and I didn’t do much winning. In fact, in high school my team went 4-25-1. Can you imagine that? And I got a scholarship to a big time school. A school that had won national championships before I got there. I guess that says a lot about high school football in the Dallas, Texas area. Then in college, the team I played for won four more games than we lost in my four seasons. We didn’t win any bowl games. We had consecutive losing seasons. Didn’t stop me though. I made my way to the podium in New York City one Saturday in December. Yeah, my alma mater went on to win the national title the year AFTER I graduated. I started 202 games in the NFL. I am an all-time leader in one offensive category for a team. But again, I didn’t do much winning. Seven winning seasons. That’s all we had. And of those, two seasons we had just nine wins. To make matters worse. One of our coaches left, and we lost to him in the Super Bowl the next year. I joined him a couple of years later. We finished 5-11. Geez. I guess I can’t win for losing. Is that how it goes? Maybe I’ll get a bust in Canton some day.
Who am I?
You’re a Texas native, hall of famer, amd heisman winner. You played for a storied program in college but the team was mediocre while you were there. You played on a pro team that was pretty good, but lost in its only trip to the super bowl. I think the key here might be that you lost to one of your team’s former assistant coaches. Still, I have no idea. Gonna have to do some thinking and waiting for Wally.
I think I know who it is. Dallas origin is a BIG clue. At first, you start thinking it’s got to be a QB, but then you realize it doesn’t actually say that. It’s not a QB. Now when you’re from Dallas and your college team wins a national title the year AFTER you graduate, then it must be Touchdown Timmy Brown, the Heisman winning and NFL HoFer wide receiver from Notre Dame. He’s one of my favorite all-time football players … Heisman in ’87 then the Irish won it all in ’88. Brown went on to play for the Raiders and they had what looked like a GREAT team with Rich Gannon slinging it at QB, but they were somehow trounced in the Super Bowl by Jon Gruden of Tampa Bay, their former coach.
Good thing I beat Pete to this one 🙂
Nice one, Wally. Funny thing is, I was thinking of that Bucs/Raiders Super Bowl when I said I thought the key was the team losing to a former assistant. Then, I thought of Tim Brown–who, incidentally did not deserve the Heisman he won. Don McPherson did, but we know the Heisman is all about the “setup year”–but, then I thought…Tim Brown isn’t in the Hall of Fame? Is he?
OK, so I’ll correct myself on the former assistant thing. As you all know, Gruden was the head coach of the Raiders, left after 2001, then beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl the following year.
Now, back to the question. Tim Brown was on that 2002 Raiders team, is a Dallas native, Heisman Trophy winner, and I’ll take Wally’s word that his Notre Dame team won the National Championship the year after he left. He also joined Gruden on the 2004 Bucs, who went 5-11, before he retired.
However, he does not have a bust in Canton. He’s in the College Football Hall of Fame, and was a finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2010, but he did not get elected. Am I wrong about this?
I’m assuming Casey simply made a mistake, unless he’s so diabolical that there’s another guy who fits this exact description, with the exception that he is in the Hall in Canton. I wouldn’t put it past Casey to be so clever, and to try to cross up Wally in such a way.
So, is Tim Brown not the correct answer? If so, Casey is a genius. If not…well, you’ll have to wait for another opportunity for me to use the “G” word to describe you, Case. 🙂
CRAP! Chas, you are correct. I screwed up. Tim Brown did NOT get elected to the pro football hall of fame.
Edit made.
Damn, I was rooting for the diabolical genius angle. I thought you might at least want to keep people guessing all day.
Hahaha – but you have given me a new angle to look at things.
I’m looking forward to seeing what you can do with that angle, Casey.
I’m also looking forward to getting my props from Wally for catching an error he didn’t…especially one related to a Notre Dame player. Of course, that will be after he jumps all over me for suggesting Don McPherson was more deserving of the Heisman than Tim Brown. But, he was. 😉
By the way, I don’t know how long this has been the case, but sports-reference.com now has college football and college basketball:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/
It seems these pages are still a work in progress. CFB says statistics are complete back to 2000, and CBB says back to 1998-99.
Hmmm…did five comments on the same thread in a little over an hour trigger some kind of spam alert? My last comment says it’s awaiting moderation.
I thought Hornung at first, but ND did not win a national title the year after he left. A Hesiman winner, but I am drawing a blank. Hornung was the only winner to play for teams with mediocre records that I can recall! I give up!
Wally, you not only beat me in time, but beat me in thought as well. How could I have forgotten Tim Brown? He was Lou’s first project at ND, but Lou couldn’t win it all until after he left and the NEXT project, Rocket, came into his own. As to Brown’s pro career, I admit to a complete lack of knowledge on that. Chas, good job with everything but the McPherson sentiment!
Because of two links, the comment was held for approval.
Guys —
I actually thought Brown was already in the NFL HoF … simply because he had such a GREAT career. Nonetheless, I think he’s a shoo-in one of these years. He’s near the top of the career lists in a lot of the WR stats, plus one of those old-school class acts that everyone admires and wanted on their team. One of Al Davis’s last smart picks.
Maybe Brown didn’t deserve the most Heisman votes that year … maybe he did. And maybe it’s evidence why Notre Dame is Notre Dame and Syracuse is … well … Syracuse. Just sayin’ … but I think Chas was hinting at this anyway. Still … Brown was an electrifying CFB player … did it all and did it really well … pass catching, reverses, kick returns. He was the “Rocket” before the Rocket (Ismail). Maybe he won the Heisman because he was simply THE BEST CFB player on the field that year and everyone knew it. His pro career certainly attests to that being a possibility, doesn’t it? And who’s this Don McPearson guy? Why does anyone think he shoulda won … what’s the argument?
Wally, I just remember thinking back in ’87 that McPherson (who finished 2nd in the voting) had a better year than Brown, and that Brown was better in ’86 than he was in ’87. The fact that McPherson came in 2nd, despite the fact that he wasn’t even considered a candidate going into the season is evidence that I’m not way off base on this.
Looking back on it, now that I can look at the stats on sports-reference.com/CFB, I think it’s debatable. Brown’s senior year wasn’t as much of a statistical downgrade from his junior year as I remember, mainly because of three punt returns for TDs as a senior.
But, McPherson was awesome too (164.3 passer rating, 10.2 yds per pass attempt, 22 to 11 TD/INT ratio) and he led a Syracuse team that was 5-6 the prior year to an 11-0-1 season, and a Pat Dye decision (for which he earned the nickname Pat Tie) to kick a game-tying field goal with one second left in the Sugar Bowl away from a perfect season.
I’m glad I am not the only one who thought Brown was in the Hall.
Wally – Syracuse is Jim Brown, Larry Csonka, Ernie Davis, Floyd Little, John Mackey, Jim Ringo and Art Monk.
Syracuse is Daryl Johnston, Dwight Freeney, Marvin Harrison, JOe Morris and Gary Anderson.
Should I keep going?
The Orange have had over 20 guys go on to be named All-Pro: https://suathletics.syr.edu/sports/2007/1/29/OrangeNFLallpro.aspx
Casey, how come you didn’t mention David Tyree?
hahahaha
HELMET CATCH!
HELMET STICKER!
Casey —
That’s a nice list . You missed possibly the most obvious Cuse grad in today’s game … Donovan McNabb. How many were All-Americans and/or Heisman winners?
Do you have their list of national chan’ships? It’s a pretty short one 🙂
I asked you if you wanted me to keep going. Don was my outside ace that I left for the fifth trick.
Chas —
That year was a very good one for Syracuse … probably by far their highwater mark over a solid 40-50 year period. This was also a time when “eastern football” was dismissed by many (not saying it was right to do so) as not being near the level of other parts of the country … except for Penn State. I suspect that taking a look at The Orange’s schedule that year would tell us why … why maybe McPherson and the team in general wasn’t getting as much respect as you think they deserved.
You’re definitely right, Wally, that there were factors that led to Syracuse and McPherson not receiving the respect they deserved. Maybe their schedule wasn’t that tough, but I do remember making a dreary road trip from Penn State to the Carrier Dome, and watching Syracuse trounce my Lions, 48-21…and it wasn’t really that close, from my recollection. That was a Penn State team that won the national championship the prior year, and was ranked 10th in the country going into the game.
Actually, since you mentioned it, even Penn State didn’t get that much respect back then, so you’re definitely right. 1985 and 1986 they were always the lowest rated among the major undefeated teams, and had to essentially wait for all the other teams to lose to finally get to the top of the rankings. In ’85, their lack of respect seemed justified when Oklahoma dominated them in the Orange Bowl, but we all know what happened at the conclusion of that ’86 season. Well, Jimmy Johnson, Vinny Testaverde, Michael Irvin and Jerome Brown definitely know.:)
Syracuse’s ’87 schedule: Maryland, @Rutgers, Miami of Ohio, Virginia Tech, Missouri, Penn State, Colgate, @ Pittsburgh, @ Navy, Boston College, West Virginia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Syracuse_Orangemen_football_team
I remember seeing some very good, if not great, Penn State teams play at Notre Dame. I remember one very close game in particular in South Bend … I think it might’ve been right after I graduated so maybe it was the 1986 game. What a heartbreaker for me at least. I think PSU won on a last second TD by a few points … a pass into the back of the endzone by Chuck Fusina or maybe the guy who does color now for ESPN … what’s his name?
Hey … at least they climbed in the rankings when teams in front of them lost instead of getting jumped every week … like Boise State these days. 😉
Almost forgot – Tim Brown is the answer. Hahahaha
I feel dirty for using Wiki.
Thanks for revealing the ’87 Syracuse schedule, Casey. I won’t claim infallible knowledge on this, but memory tells me that the only tough games for them woulda been Penn State, Pitt and BC … and maybe WVU … they were pretty good with Major Harris and played ND for the title at the end of ’88. Va Tech was just starting to get its feet wet back then, Navy was bad and the rest were like Rutgers. Lots of easy wins on that slate .. but the Cuse was obviously a very good-to-great team if they manhandled Penn State that year.
Wally, Todd Blackledge is the guy you’re thinking of, but if it was 1986, it was John Shaffer. I was a freshman at Penn State in 1985, and Blackledge was already gone. Fusina was the guy before him.
We got beat by John Shaffer?!?!? Seriously?!?!? Did Shaffer QB the national championship team that beat Miami??
Just goes to show ya that … SOMETIMES … defense wins chan’ships 😉
Yes, John Shaffer was the QB of the National Championship team, and that year especially…defense won a championship.
I don’t even remember the name John Shaffer. Must have been defense that won it for sure!
Certainly not “famous” … much like ND’s Tony Rice (’88) … but I’m sure Shaffer has a firm place in the hearts of Penn State fans.
Maybe not quite as big a place as their grizzled middle linebacker who later played for the Bills … always seemed to have leg injuries … who am I thinking of? Same guy that intercepted Testeverde at the end of the title game to seal the deal, right?
Who woulda thunk a simple WAI that was immediately slam dunked woulda generated over 30 responses??? Gotta love the Pine! 🙂
By the way Casey … I think you’ve always been confused about my passion for the Raiders, but maybe today’s subject of Tim Brown has clued you in to at least part of the source. Since I was a kid, there’s always been an ND connection to THE RA–DUZZZZZ , as Chris Berman says. Daryl Lamonica … then Dave Casper… Steve Buerlein … Tim Brown. And with Duh Bares totally sucking in the ’70s … ‘cept for Sweetness … I fell in love with the Stabler-Casper-Belitnikoff-Branch-Madden-Shell-Blanda-Banaczak-Hendricks-Villapiano version… some great teams. Didn’t hurt that they were the NFL’s version of the Oakland A’s (cast of characters) or that they had the coolest logo in football. Love the “eyepatch guy”.
Ghost to the Post, baby!!! 😉
I believe Shane Conlan is the guy you’re thinking of, Wally. Pete Giftopoulos made the interception that clinched the title game.
Yep … Conlan is the guy I was thinking of. Of course, PSU is Linebacker U.
Wally, you always catch me off guard when you are fishing for a name – like Shane Conlon. I am never sure if it is because you really can’t draw the name, which is surprising given your large store of sports trivia, or if you are making a statement about this particular guy; that he is regrettable or forgettable or despicable or whatever -able you might be thinking of. You did it another time in the past week, though I can’t remember the player you were searching out that time.
Pete —
If I can’t remember the name, it’s sincere fishing. Conlans’ name was on the tip of my tongue and I could see him … had the visual … just couldn’t get it at that moment.
Not just 30 responses, but 30 GREAT responses. Make that 40 responses now.