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New Blog Post: Open Thread Thursday | December 17th, 2009 https://bit.ly/5xKy1j
I like the signings by the Red Sox of Mike Cameron and John Lackey.
A pitching staff of Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, John Lackey, Dice-K and either Clay Bucholz or Tim Wakefield is really entertaining.
Would like to see the bring in Bay or Holliday – but only if it make sense. I generally trust Theo & Co. decisions on length of contracts – a la Pedro Martinez.
All signs lead to Boston pursuing Adrian Gonzalez from the San Deigo Padres.. But at what cost? Bucholz? I can live with it ? Bucholz and Westmoreland? Okay.. Bucholz and Ellsbury? Absolutely not.. Ellsbury is a special talent and is will be a mistake to get rid of. Let’s win with pitching and defense.. A hitter will become available for a much cheaper price.
Defense wins championships!! 🙂
Smitty
Bay or Holliday? You want one of those guys along with Cameron and Ellsbury? Whoa! I thought you liked Drew?
I’m happy I don’t have to go shopping for your Christmas list. 🙂
But a great offense helps, too!!!! 😉 Ha … ya didn’t think I’d let that pass, did ya?
2009 World Series:
Gm 1 Philadelphia Phillies 6 @ New York Yankees 1
Gm 2 Philadelphia Phillies 1 @ New York Yankees 3
Gm 3 New York Yankees 8 @ Philadelphia Phillies 5
Gm 4 New York Yankees 7 @ Philadelphia Phillies 4
Gm 5 New York Yankees 6 @ Philadelphia Phillies 8
Gm 6 Philadelphia Phillies 3 @ New York Yankees 7
None of us have denied that. Offense wins games; defense wins championships!
The Yankees averaged 5.3 runs per game in the WS and needed every bit of it. I believe 5.3 rpg is WELL ABOVE the league average.
Oh … and here is where the Yankees ranked in all of MLB in the following categories in 2009:
Runs scored #1
Batting avg #2
Fielding % #16 (Pittsburgh was #1)
ERA #12 (Dodgers #1)
Gee … looks like offense wins chan’ships, too. Duh!
Duh? Duh? Is this romper room?
How well has your theory worked for Notre Dame athletics the last few years?
Casey – I think I would have preferred either Bay or Holliday but at this point, the Sox are certainly looking like they are going to try and beat you with pitching and defense. I am perfectI just worry that they feel like they have to get Adrian Gonzalez to start the season. Jed Hoyer just left the Red Sox organization to become the GM in San Diego and he won’t trade Gonzalez (their most popular player) without getting a king’s ransom back. Rumors have it that Ellsbury is part of that ransom.. I think the Sox would be foolish to give away Ellsbury. I don’t think we have seen his ceiling yet and he is one of those few players who reck havoc at the top of the lineup.
One of major hangups over the Bay or Holliday negotiations – was over the legnth of contract. Apparenly the Sox were only willing to go so far because of concerns with his shoulder and knee. If I have figured anything out during Theo’s reign: – if the Mets are willing to go there and the Sox aren’t – I trust the Sox’s judgement on this one.. If St. Louis wants to give Holliday 8 years – go for it.
I’d rather see the Sox sign Carlos Delgado for a year and move Youkilis to 3B.
Wally – Is that why the Yankees traded for Curtis Granderson.. More offense?
Different sport completely Casey.
I like Wally’s take.
I’d like to clarify though some of the statements. Defense does not win in baseball… PITCHING wins in baseball. It’s no surprise that every playoff team has at least 3 legit starting pitchers. Pitching, not defense. For example, The Sox won with Manny in the outfield, Varitek behind the plate, and Damon in the outfield.
Dan – you will need to do some catching up on this topic as it has been discussed here several times.
Pitching is not defense? Wow! I feel like I just stepped off the mind eraser at the nearby amusement park.
Does that mean the goalie in hockey is not part of the defense?
I’m saying it’s more specific than defense.
Roy Halladay could win 15-20 games in MLB with a Double A or Triple A defense behind him.
That’s what I meant. More specific. Pitching and Pitchers are most important to a defense.
Again, different sport… (concerning hockey)
If we are going to look at numbers without any context, than, sure, the stats above look great. But that completely ignores the psychological impact that a good defense has on a championship level team. Yes, there are exceptions. This year’s Yankees are not one of them. Holding that Phillies offense in check was no small task. Do you think their high ERA had anything to do with the fact Burnett would implode from time to time? Not to mention the Yankees middle relief was awful for the first two months of the season. When did the Yankees get going? When their pitching and defense got going.
It sure is nice to be able to swing for the fences because you know your defense will keep things close.
Stats are fine. I enjoy interpreting stats. Stats without context? Yeah, you can twist however you want to make your argument.
When was the last time Hallady pitched in the post season?
Halladay would win 15-20 games with a Double A or Triple A defense??
I am sorry, so after 2 or 3 errors and his pitch count is up to a 100 by the 5th inning – think he sticks around for the win or does the middle relief hold it.
Pitching and defense are absolutely intertwined. Good defense keeps pitch counts low, which keeps starters in longer, which bridges that gap to the closer much narrower, which in tail – leads to more wins.
And until this year – Varitek was considered one of the best defensive catchers in the American League.. Damon is 2004, while his throw represented more of a girl – covered a ton of ground. Manny in left field didn’t hurt you, but didn’t help you.. So the fact that the Red Sox won in 2004 was for defense and for its pitching too.
Pitching is defense by default, simply because it is NOT OFFENSE! But Dan is right; pitching wins in baseball, even when other aspects may not be up to par. The “double A triple A” defense may be stretching it a bit, but look at those Yankee rankings. On the other hand, in football and basketball, defense DOES win championships (I hate to admit it).
Which brings me back around to pitching. Why is Halladay better than Cliff Lee? As a pure pitcher, maybe he’s not. But as a contributor to the team, especially in mentoring young pitchers, he’s FAR more valuable. That makes Halladay a “Pitcher+”, and THAT wins championships.
Overall defense is different in baseball than it is in football and basketball as Pete suggested above. There is no one defensive position in those two sports that is so incredibly more important than the rest like the pitcher is in baseball.
Moving on from that, I was surprised with the Halladay move as well. How is he better than Cliff Lee? Did the Phillies get anything else in the deal that would make them trade 2 very similar pitchers?? I guess the only thing I see is that Halladay is a #1 starter on any team he’s on, including probably over Sabathia, whereas I might not say that with Lee. Lee could be a #2 on a few teams as he was when he was behind Sabathia a couple years ago. Anyone agree with this?
On a separate and selfish topic…What is the best way to get ‘Cuse basketball tickets? Other people have always gotten them for me but I’d like to purchase them myself. Thanks.
Oh yeah…Has anyone opened any Tiger Woods discussion or is that banned on this site. I’m sure Casey would probably despise the conversation. Is this true??
I heard an interview with Lee where he expressed disappointment in being traded. He said he expected to be in Philly for the long run. When those trade talks opened, I thought Halladay was going to join Lee on the staff. But overall, at least Philly knows that Lee can perform in the post-season.
As for SU tickets? Good luck getting any Big East games within a reasonable distance. Go on SU’s site. You can find them there. You will have to expect to be in the third tier – bring your binoculars.
Tiger Woods article and hey get the discussion going: https://pickinsplinters.com/2009/11/28/winter-rules/
Oh and I included T. Woods in this piece: https://pickinsplinters.com/2009/12/13/rebounds-put-backs-december-13th-2009/
Tiger is an awesome defensive golfer … that’s why he wins so many chan’ships! 🙂
Just remember … I’m not saying it’s not defense that wins titles … Im saying that it can be offense too. And with great teams … like dynasties … it’s usually both. I think it’s pretty clear that the ’09 Yankees were offense oriented.
Yes, Pitching is indeed part of the defensive side of this discussion. Sorry, Dan …. but I do appreciate your support!
I didn’t say it wasn’t in the discussion, it’s just a different beast than other defensive positions in other sports.
I will actually be attending Syracuse vs Louisville as well as Syracuse vs Georgetown. Good thing im not a procrastinator!
I know I’m joining a bit late, but offense wins games and defense wins championships?? I thought you had to win games to win championships!! But don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the vice-versa, I’m just saying well-rounded teams win them both.
Is pitching part of the defense? I’ve seen pitchers field their position, but I’m not touching this one.
The Halladay trade could have been done in July. Only difference is that the prospects that they traded for him were untouchable at that time. So I say would the Phillies be back-to-back champions if the trade was made earlier?
Halladay is one of the best pitchers of this period, but to assume that he can win 20 games with an inferior defense is just out of this world. He only did it twice in this decade and he had a major league defense behind him.
There were a couple of other arguments and examples I wanted to shoot down( like the comparsion of Lee & Sabathia prior to Lee’s breakout season) but I guess I’ll keep it short for now
Gino,
Long time no see. Happy to have you back on the pine. You gotta leave your mathematics background behind and look at the theory (offense wins games…) from an abstract perspective. A good defense creates the confidence necessary to allow the offense to work through any problems.
Some things never change…….
Casey,
If pitching is 90% of the game and you consider pitching to be defense. Both of them are quite accepted principals, than your statement makes sense and you’re completely correct.
But I can not make that statement about the importance of pitching, because I’m biased. I’m just too close to my playing days.
Quote from Bob Matthews (Rochester D&C); “On paper, the Yankees have one of the most impressive lineups in baseball history. They can’t match Boston in pitching depth, but it might not matter.” Obviously, he does not subscribe to the theory that pitching/defense wins championships. Until now I was sitting on the fence on this issue, but after knowing what Matthews believes, I am now 100% behind the “defense wins” theory. He is NEVER right!
I wonder if Matthews has to cite himself. “On paper, the Yankees…” He has said that EVERY year for the last 10-12 years. I suppose he has to be right once in a while.