After a pretty spirited debate about the relative merits of the greatest shortstops of all-time, this week we move over to the position commonly referred to as the “hot corner”. But first is the matter of our Mount Otsego shortstops. Although we were divided regarding a couple of players in particular–both of whom didn’t make the final cut–Smitty and I feel that this represents as close to a consensus as we could get:
Ernie Banks
Cal Ripken Jr.
Honus Wagner
Robin Yount
Third Base is the most under-represented position in terms of number of members in the Hall of Fame, with 13. By comparison, there are over 20 Hall of Famers at a number of other positions, including first base, shortstop, center field and right field. Additionally, only six of these guys didn’t need the Veterans Committee or the Negro Leagues Committee to gain election.
We’re taking a slightly different approach this week. Smitty and I are each making a case for six different players, whereas in previous entries, we simply presented our six selections each without regard for who the other picked. The overlap in our picks could have been interpreted as the guys we were collectively supporting. Not that we think this influenced your opinions, but we feel that, by doing it this way, the commenting will begin with a clean slate. Some candidates will be more obvious than others, of course, but this won’t be reflected in the fact that both Smitty and I nominated them.
Smitty’ Six
Wade Boggs
Finally, a Red Sox player. Then again, he went on to play with the Yankees and eventually the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, so I’m not sure if the Red Sox can fully claim him as their own. Either way, Boggs has to be considered one of the greatest hitting third basemen ever to play the game. The five-time batting champion finished his career with a .328 batting average, 3010 hits, 137 HR and 1014 RBI. Interestingly enough, Boggs was able to reach the 3000 hit club despite not playing a major league game until the age of 25. He also finished his career as a 12-time All-Star and won two Gold Gloves. Boggs also participated in the longest game in professional baseball history with the Pawtucket Red Sox. The game against the Rochester Red Wings lasted 33 innings over two days and featured two future Hall of Famers.
George Kell
A lot of people might disagree with me, but George Kell belongs in the discussion when talking about the greatest third basemen of all-time. During the 1940s and 1950s, Kell was considered the best third baseman in the American League. He batted over .300 nine times, finishing with a career batting average of .306, 2054 hits and 870 RBI. A 10-time All-Star selection, Kell finished first in the league in assists and total chances four times during his career. He also led in fielding percentage seven times, finishing with a career fielding percentage of .969.
Eddie Mathews
For most of Eddie Mathews’ career, Hank Aaron stole the spotlight. Not for this article, as Mathews is considered by many to be one of the greatest third basemen to ever play the game. He finished with a career batting average of .271, 512 HR and 1453 RBI. Ty Cobb was once qouted as saying, “I’ve only known three or four perfect swings in my time. This lad has one of them.” Mathews was a nine-time All-Star selection and finished with a career fielding percentage of .956 at third base.
Graig Nettles
One of the best fielding third basemen to ever play the game, Nettles was also solid offensively. While he had a low career batting average of .248, he also had 390 HR and 1314 RBI. A six-time All-Star selection who won two Gold Gloves, Nettles finished with a career fielding percentage of .961.
Scott Rolen
I am not a fan of putting active players on this list, but I believe Scott Rolen deserves consideration. Rolen, still playing with the Toronto Blue Jays, has career numbers of a .283 batting average, 276 HR, 1081 RBI, and 1732 hits. He is a five-time All-Star and has won seven Gold Gloves. In fact, only two third basemen have won more Gold Gloves at the position. Pretty elite company if you ask me.
Mike Schmidt
When you start talking about the greatest third basemen in Major League Baseball history, Mike Schmidt should either be at the top or near the top of everyone’s list. If career numbers of a .267 batting average, 548 HR and 1595 RBI aren’t enough, how about adding that he was a 12-time All-Star selection, 10-time Gold Glove winner and three-time National League MVP? Add in a career fielding percentage at the hot corner of .955 and Captain Cool shouldn’t be denied a place on Mount Otsego.
Chas’ Picks
George Brett
Referred to by teammate Frank White as “…the greatest clutch hitter I’ve played with or against,” Brett compiled a .627 slugging percentage in 166 postseason at bats, 40% of which were against the Yankees. Of course, he’s not to be regarded as simply an excellent postseason player, having collected over 1500 runs and 1500 RBI to go with his 3154 career hits, 317 HR, and .305 batting average. He was also selected to play in 13 consecutive All-Star games (1976-1988) and won three batting titles, including in his MVP season of 1980. It was in that magical season, that he made a run at .400, falling 10 points short with what was, at the time, the highest single season average since Ted Williams hit .406 in 1941.
Chipper Jones
If we’re going to consider an active player, in my opinion, it should be this guy. Flying a little under the radar, Jones has put together some incredible numbers over the course of his 15+ year career: 2335 hits, 1408 runs, 416 HR, 1405 RBI, .310 batting average, .408 OBP, 145 OPS+ (45% better-than-average on-base plus slugging percentage). Not necessarily a stellar defender, but not a liability either, as his career fielding percentage is slightly above average for the position. Jones also has played in six All-Star games, won the MVP in 1999, and last year at age 36, he posted career highs in batting average (.364) and OBP (.470).
Paul Molitor
Although “The Ignitor” played more games at DH than anywhere in his career, third base was the defensive position he manned the most. His 3319 career hits included four seasons of 200 or more and three seasons leading the league. Add to that 234 HR, 504 SB, 1782 runs (three times leading the league), and a .368 batting average and .615 slugging percentage in 117 postseason at bats, and you have a serious candidate for Mount Otsego. Despite the time spent as a DH, Molitor was actually a pretty good defender at both third and second base, who was relegated to DHing due to injuries. He was also a seven-time All-Star who won the World Series MVP for Toronto in 1993.
Brooks Robinson
I probably don’t have to tell you that “The Human Vacuum Cleaner” won 16 Gold Gloves, the most ever by anyone at any position other than pitcher. After Clete Boyer revolutionized third base play by being the first to position his body lower to the ground for better lateral movement, Robinson perfected the art. While not known for his bat, he still collected 2848 hits and 268 HR, while finishing in the top five in AL MVP voting five times, winning the award in 1964. Robinson finished in the top six in the league in hits eight times, was selected to 15 All-Star teams, and won the 1970 World Series MVP.
Ron Santo
If you polled SABR members as to who is the mostly widely overlooked player for Hall of Fame consideration, I would bet that at least a third of them would answer Ron Santo. Long before he endeared himself to Cubs’ fans with his colorful radio broadcasts, he was a nine-time NL All-Star who led the league in walks four times, OBP twice, and is the only third baseman in history to post eight consecutive seasons with 90 or more RBI (1963-1970). He won five consecutive Gold Gloves from 1964 to 1968, finished his career with 342 HR and 1331 RBI, and at the time of his retirement in 1974, was second or third among third basemen in home runs, slugging percentage, RBI, total bases and walks. So, forget Mount Otsego for a moment. Why is Ron Santo not in the Hall of Fame?
Pie Traynor
Long before there was Lou Merloni, Harold “Pie” Traynor was the pride of Framingham, Massachusetts. Playing alongside Arky Vaughan in Pittsburgh for part of his career, Traynor batted over .300 10 times and compiled a lifetime batting average of .320. He also drove in over 100 runs seven times in his career, and struck out only seven times in 540 at bats in 1929. There were no Gold Gloves back in his day, but he was considered by many to be the greatest defensive third baseman of his time. Unlike Vaughan, however, Traynor was elected to Hall of Fame by baseball writers in 1948.
Now that we’ve made the case for 12 of the best to ever play the position, it’s time to hear from you. What faces do you think should represent the position of third base on Mount Otsego?
In no particular order, my top 4 are: Eddie Matthews, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt and George Brett.
Hon. Mention goes to: Chipper Jones and Wade Boggs.
I’m just having trouble placing Paul Molitor due to all the position changes … maybe we should have a DH/Utility category vote later on?
Chas, thanks for telling the story of Ron Santo. Yes, It’s a real head scratcher as to why he’s not in the HoF.
My top 4 are: Brooks Rboinson, Eddie Matthews, Chipper Jones, and Mike Shchmidt. I must say that Robinson is the all-time BEST 3rd baseman! Such a legend that no one can compare.
I like the DH/Utility idea, Wally. I’ll have to think about it a little, though. The only problem is the only guys I can think of are Molitor, Frank Thomas and Pete Rose. Maybe there’s a 1B/OF type that fits the description, or maybe we can also consider anyone who was shut out of another category who played signifiant time at more than one position. Whatever we decide, it’s a good idea and we’ll probably do something with it.
So, two people have chimed in and neither of them picks Wade Boggs (except for Wally’s honorable mention)? Interesting. Going into this, I was kind of curious how he would be viewed relative to George Brett. I think they’re pretty close, and I know it’s only two opinions, but so far, I guess the nod goes to Brett.
I’m also surprised at the support for Chipper Jones. I didn’t expect that, but I think he belongs in the discussion.
Robinson is definitely the best defensive third baseman of all-time Burkester, but overall, do you really think he’s better than Mike Schmidt?
Wally, I was hoping Santo was going to get the nod from that special Veterans Committee election. Now, I don’t know if he ever will. It’s a shame.
Chas —
The reason I didn’t elevate Boggs is his lack of power & run production. I realize he batted lead off practically most of his career which is logical since he had a terrific OBP to go along with that BA. But he was also one the the slowest players you’ll ever see batting lead-off and had to wait for 2 more hits to score him … maybe three. But when it comes to run production, Brett has roughly the same amount of runs scored and 500+ more RBI. At 3B, I personally look for more run production. Plus Brett had 200 SBs … pretty good for a 3B!
I agree with your assessment of Robinson relative to Schmidt. Schmidt really did it all … a great fielder AND a great run producer. Robinson is kinda like “the Ozzie Smith of 3Bs”. Probably the best fielder ever at his position, but a little short on the “O”.
I hear you, Wally, but those 1000 RBI while generally not batting in an RBI spot in the order are pretty impressive. He also came to bat about 1000 fewer times than Brett, and I love that lifetime .415 OBP and 8 seasons of 40 doubles or more.
Yeah, Brooks is the Ozzie of 3Bs. Since 3B isn’t as defense-oriented a position as SS, does this possibly knock him down a rung? Boggs could bump him from the list instead of Brett.
Nah, you’re not gonna get me to budge on that. Brooksie was too special a fielder not to have him in my Top 4. 16 GG’s … Top 5 in MVP voting five times and winning once … clutch performances in the World Series … that speaks to me. Boggs ever come close to MVP?
Isn’t Wade Boggs really the second coming of Rod Carew? Great hitter … don’t get me wrong … but I’m just not awed by it. Besides, he stats should be discounted for being able to hit lazy fly balls off the short Fenway wall for all those doubles. Those are routine outs in other parks 😉
Schmidt, Robinson, Traynor (always a personal favorite), and Matthews. I know that good baseball says “good defense up the middle”, but there’s a reason why 3rd is called “the hot corner”. Hence I can take Robinson as opposed to Ozzie at short because of his outstanding defense and at least some semblance of offense.
Hon mention to Molitor and Brett (for their OFFENSE).
I totally hear ya on b. robinson..i’m a huge fan! I wonder if anyone will ever come close again to earning 16 gold gloves? I heard he is playing in the legends sports challenge…can’t wait to see that! To me personally he is one of the greatest baseball legends.
Matthews, Schmidt, Robinson, Brett
Wally, I really find Brooks Robinson’s high level of MVP support surprising, not necessarily the year he won it, but some of the others. One year he grounded into twice as many double plays as he hit home runs. Can you imagine Albert Pujols grounding into 80 DPs in a year?
Being the second coming of Rod Carew isn’t such a bad thing. I like Boggs better because of the OBP advantage, a little more power, and he was a better defender. Carew got moved from second to first because he was never anything special as a second baseman.
Glad to see the support for Pie Traynor, Pete. I’m still not sure why he gets the respect that Arky Vaughan doesn’t, but I won’t go there. OK, maybe I kind of did. 🙂
It’s looking like Rey’s four are well on their way to being the consensus four, although we still haven’t heard from Casey or Gino, and neither Smitty nor I have divulged our picks. I think Schmidt, Mathews and Brett are my top three. I’m still deciding between Boggs and Robinson for #4, although I have a tough time leaving Molitor out. I guess Wally’s Utility/DH idea could be a consolation.
Yes … Molitor, The Big Hurt, Edgar Martinez and Biggio can all be initial co-captains of the utility squad. But that’s for later…
Schmidt, matthews, Brett, Robinson. I might change my picks during the week though, cause I can’t find a reason not too pick Wade Boggs.
If Molitor was a third baseman in my eyes, I’d pick him. But I see him as a DH.
Schmidt – as as kid I found him boring. Now, I realize his greatness.
Robinson – I would have to go through a mind eraser to not put Brooks on the list.
Mathews – hard to dispute those numbers.
Brett – From ’77 -’85 was there a better all-around hitter in MLB? He only won one Gold Glove and I don’t remember any great defensive plays by Mr. Pine Tar Incident. Growing up, Brett and Andre Dawson were my favorite players.
Does Ken Boyer deserve mentioning?
For me it is Schmidt, Robinson, Mathews and Brett.
I agree with the honorable mention going to both Chipper Jones and Wade Boggs.
I also hope we are not going to start penalizing players for the ballparks they play in. Just because Boggs utilized Fenway Park to his advantage, doesn’t minimize him being a great hitter or his place in regards to all-time third basemen. If Boggs is penalized, does that mean Yaz and Ted Williams are penalized for hitting in the same ballpark?
Does Ernie Banks get penalized for hitting in the “friendly” Wrigley Fields. Certainly a bunch of his home runs were added by that warm summer breeze blowing out. Or does Babe Ruth get penalized for a short porch in right field?
Boggs was a great hitter and actually was by all standards (higher fielding pct. and over 800+ more chances) a better fielder then Brett.
Wally, I do agree with you, in that the you should look for more power & RBI production from the hot corner. That is where Brett has Boggs.
Overall, much closer in my mind between the two, but Brett sticks out just a little more.
I was almost sold on Pie Traynor.
We should only penalize New York Yankees for the short porch in right. Everyone else and their respective home ballparks are fine 😉
Smitty —
That was a tongue in cheek comment about Boggs hitting at Fenway. I was just looking for anything to fend off Chas. Seriously, though, I do like Brett better. As Casey aptly pointed out, Brett was simply GREAT for 8-9 years as an all-around player, possibly the best on the game over that stretch … or at least in the AL.
Scmidt
Robinson
Matthews
Brett – for all of the things already mentioned plus he seems like a great teammate.
I am wondering where Pete Rose fits in this discussion.
That’s a really good question, JD. In these types of discussions Pete Rose generally gets lumped into the left field category. I’ll admit to going along with that, without really knowing exactly why. He played more games at first base than left field, but he played considerably more games in the outfield than first base, and left field was his primary outfield position. So, that’s probably why.
It was suggested by Wally earlier in this thread that we create a utility category for players who didn’t really have one regular position and DHs. I would say that Pete Rose would be a prime candidate for this, as would Paul Molitor, Frank Thomas, Craig Biggio, Rod Carew, Edgar Martinez. I suppose Robin Yount could have as well, but we gave him the nod at SS.
I haven’t really discussed this with Smitty, but it seems like an idea we’ll probably go with. So, that may be where Pete Rose fits into the discussion.
I think we can factor in the parks that guys played in. I don’t think we should hold it against Boggs that he was really good at going the other way at Fenway, but if a guy played in all hitters’ parks (or all pitchers’ parks) in his career, we can take that into consideration. The trouble we run into is it adds another subjective element, like comparing players from completely different eras, but that’s pretty much what this is all about. That is, unless we use stats that adjust for ballpark factor…but we won’t go there. 🙂
Regarding the Yankee thing, if you’re going to hold the stadium against Babe Ruth, then you should also think about what death valley did to Joe DiMaggio. I guess that’s an example that shows how difficult it is because the stadium was certainly a hitters’ park to Ruth, but a pitchers’ park to Joe D.
Casey — Ken Boyer belongs in the discussion as much as, or more than, Graig Nettles does.
It looks like Schmidt, Mathews, Robinson and Brett…this one’s not nearly as controversial as SS, huh?
Nope … that’s cuz everyone seems to agree with me.
Hah … jk 🙂
Chas-
I actually put Robinson as my number one because I’ve been hearing so much hype about him. Have you been hearing as much as I have about how he’s going to be in a legends poker tournament this fall?