By: Greg Kincaid
A couple of weeks ago, Penn State football coach Joe Paterno denied reports that he came out and said that the Big Ten should add a twelfth team to the conference. Regardless whether Paterno did say this or not, many fans feel that it would be appropriate for the twelfth team to be added. There are many benefits from this. The question is what are the setbacks, if there are even any?
Adding a team to the Big Ten would be great for a number of reasons. The conference has an annual affiliation with the Rose Bowl game as the Big Ten champion is represented in the college football’s most famous bowl game.
The problem with this is that the champion is determined by the season ending standings. For example, Penn State earned its bid into the Rose Bowl this year after going 7-1 in conference play. The Ohio State Buckeyes did the same, with their only loss coming to the Nittany Lions on October 25, giving Penn State the edge in the tiebreaker to determine the conference champion.
The ACC, SEC and Big 12 all have conference championship games for football, which is putting pressure on the other three major conferences, including the Big Ten. Adding a twelfth team to the Big Ten would most likely allow the conference to determine a champion through a championship game because of the even number of teams.
Having 12 teams would let the conference split the schools into two separate divisions, just like the SEC for example. The winner of each division would square-off with one another in the conference championship game. This year in the SEC, Florida and Alabama won their respected divisions, earning them both bids into the SEC championship game.
Beyond football, another team would stir up competition in other sports as well, like basketball. Possibly more interesting matchups and scenarios during the basketball season would boost up ratings on the Big Ten’s new television channel, The Big Ten Network.
So if the Big Ten was to add a 12th team, who would be the perfect fit? Many suggestions are schools that come from the Big East conference, like Syracuse for an example. However, taking a school like Syracuse out of the Big East would burn the basketball competition. When people think of the big basketball school’s affiliated with the Big East, they think Syracuse.
Another suggestion out of the Big East which makes a lot of sense is West Virginia. The Mountaineer athletic program has really grown recently with a lot of success in their football and basketball programs. Success in football is probably the more important factor if the Big Ten were to add a 12th school. This would give West Virginia the edge over Syracuse.
However, even though West Virginia seems like a perfect fit, it sits too much south of the other Big Ten Schools. The school right now is a perfect fit in the Big East, and removing the Mountaineers would take away a lot of good things, including their infamous rivalry with Pittsburgh, The Backyard Brawl.
So since we are so worried about taking things away from the Big East, why not look at an independent football school……..Notre Dame of course!
The time has come where the Irish need to buy in and join a conference, like the Big Ten. Notre Dame sits in South Bend, Ind. surrounded by a handful of Big Ten schools like Purdue, Indiana and Illinois. If you think about it, a good number of Big Ten schools either now or in the near future have signed contracts to play Notre Dame. Take teams like Michigan State, Purdue and Michigan who seem to play the Irish every year. Add four more Big Ten teams to Notre Dame’s schedule, then you have a Big Ten schedule.
Look from a public relations standpoint of this as well. For football, the Big Ten would probably be one of the most respected conferences. Imagine having Joe Paterno, Jim Tressel and Charlie Weis all coaching in the same conference. That would be something to talk about for the ages.
Regardless what happens, it is a must that the Big Ten adds a 12th team within the next ten years.
Greg —
This has been discussed several times … not necessarily at this site … but definitely at NDNation and others over the past decade. Are you aware that ND is firmly entrenched in the Big East for all sports other than football? Well, that and hockey. But ND is independent only in football.
Greg
Great to see you back up and running. I know you have been busy with the end of the semester and your new gig with the Rochester Red Wings. Congratulations on the internship!!!!
Notre Dame wouldn’t be the first ‘firmly entrenched’ school to leave the Big East. Boston College made the jump to the ACC.
The Big 10 with 12 teams and a playoff? I like it for no other reason than the Rose Bowl participant would not have such an inordinate amount of time between games.
As for topics being discussed before on the site? Gee…that’s odd. Seems like there are some that can take any article and make into an ND discussion. Now the ND discussion is started and we put the kebosh on it?
Oh yeah – Greg, I read your article and noticed that you mentioned ND as a Big East school.
😉
Greg – Good to see you back. I think a “Tuesday with Smitty” is right around the corner – probably next week. But that is not the topic here.
I think Notre Dame to the Big Ten makes alot of sense, since like you said a majority of their schedule is already against Big 10 teams. They can still use one of their out of conference games to play USC and let’s face it – adding Notre Dame to the Big Ten gives the conference a sudden surge in legitimacy (if it needed anymore).
As for being “fimly entrenched” – I think it is the contrary. I think Notre Dame doesn’t belong in the Big East.. Is there some level of arrogance that Notre Dame allows its “not as popular” sports teams to participate in the Big East, but the football team doesn’t have to? If Notre Dame was firmly entrenched in the Big East, why haven’t they included more Big East teams into their football schedule in an attempt to help Big East football?
I am with Casey – I have seen teams, far more entrenched in their conference, get up and leave. From a rivalry standpoint and logistics standpoint – Notre Dame is a great fit for the Big Ten. Even Mike Brey might win a few games in the Big Ten.
Kincaid, you are a busy man. Thanks for taking the time to post. As to the topic, to quote he late Billy Martin, “I feel strongly both ways!” In fact I feel strongly THREE ways.
When ND decided to join a conference for ANY sports, it surprised me on the one hand that they did not go to the Big 10, but it was not a true surprise to see them go to the Big CYO. And as long as they keep a mediocre coach like Brey they need to stay in a high profile basketball conference like the Big East. Their major exposure comes as a result of their conference, not ND basketball. So, I’m for Big East (to accommodate basketball).
As I noted in a response to an earlier post about Spring at ND, it’s put up or shut up time for Weis. I’m tired of his misplaced bravado, but he has put ND into a position of NEEDING to develop a conference affiliation in football. Until ND can prove that it can be an “independent” independent, then they need to consider a league affiliation. Does any make more sense than the Big 10? I think not.
Finally, strong feeling #3: I am now and have always been opposed to ND joining a conference for football, although I now temper that to: “I hope they can avoid joining a conference for football. Like most ND people, I have the arrogance that says “We are ND!” We should be our own entity when it comes to college football. We should be linked to NO conference, but linked to he game itself. That’s what our tradition was built on, and I am first and last and always a traditionalist.
And all this goes to show that no matter how many times this topic has been discussed elsewhere, it always draws some reaction. Thanks for stirring the embers and causing a blaze (again), at least in my otherwise idle mind.
Since Greg is proposing a marriage of sorts between the Big 10 and ND, we have to look at this from both sides.
From the Big 10’s perspective, I think having ND in the conference (completely in … all sports) would be viewed quite favorably by both the universities and their fans … except maybe for Michigan … their dislike for the Irish is deep-seated and goes way back to the ’20s. But for mainly the football reasons stated above, it would give them an even 12 teams with two divisions and the season-ending playoff they should be craving. Plus ND geographically is smack dab in the middle of Big 10 country and also would enhance the conference’s academic reputation.
Now from ND’s perspective, it’s not that simple and their administration will look at it mainly from a football brand marketing and an economics angle, as they have in the past. Despite recent poor performance on the field, the ND football “brand” remains quite strong without any conference affiliation and it continues to be a huge cash cow for the university. Love ’em or hate ’em, ND football still puts people in the seats and in front of TVs like no other team … and ND doesn’t have to share bowl or TV revenues with anyone due to their independent status. All that football cash is kept in house to fuel the needs of a school with only 8,000 students on a relatively small campus. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE IMPACT OF $$$$ ON A STRATEGIC QUESTION SUCH AS THIS!! Would the football brand suffer if suddenly affiliated with a conference? Apparently the ND bosses have decided it would. My question is: Would ND football performance ON THE FIELD be enhanced by conference affiliation, particularly Big 10? I honestly don’t know the answer …. I posted the argument months ago that maybe joining Big East football would give ND the boost it needed record-wise by virtue of the BE being an “easier conference”.
All we know is that ND football has prospered quite well through the decades as in independent. Granted, the age of super-conferences is a relatively recent phenomena that has coincided with ND’s post-Holtz decline. No secret … I believe the fate of ND’s football program rests mostly with the ability to recruit blue-chip players … so is that task easier if you’re in the Big 10?? Or is it easier by playing a “national schedule” and having at least 7 games per season broadcast nationally on essentially your own station?? Again, i don’t know the answer, but ND … even under Weis lately … has been quite successful on the recruiting front over the past 3 years … the good ones are just now juniors.
So my opinion on the question of whether ND should try to join the B10 will be highly influenced by what happens on the field this year. My worry is that although they have the talent to be Top 10 in 2009 and for years to come, they don’t have the coaching staff to get them there. More seasons like the last two will indeed harm the ND brand … and they may be forced to more seriously entertain joining a conference if ’09 and ’10 are mediocre.
With regard to the “other sports”, ND’s overall performance across the board in everything other than football has prospered immensely since joining the Big East. Basketball (until this past season), hockey, soccer, baseball, etc have collectively enjoyed unprecedented improvement/success over the past dozen or so years. Is this merely coincidental with joining the Big East? Could it have also been achieved by joining the B10?
I’ll be interested to hear Pete’s take on all this …. I think he’s got more of the history on ND’s past looks at joining conferences.
Oops … Looks like Pete hit the send button before I was finished with my novel.
Sounds like we generally agree on one thing … ND fans hope the next season or two are good enough to squash this type of conversation. We hope ND football is good enough to remain independent. Can’t emphasize enough the word “hope” here 🙂
Anyway, let’s not kid ourselves …. it really is all about the $$$money$$$. If nothing else, money is something the Catholic church has been very good at managing. 🙂
Smitty and Casey … almost forgot … those “other deeply entrenched schools” like Boston College that have switched conferences … they did it for the money. And the conferences that take in these renegade schools … they’re also doing it for the money.
Wally, we agree on a number of key issues. Money is the key, and mediocre performances in the next season or 2 will dictate that ND look at conference affiliation. I think ND is sensitive to the fact that many BE people hate them because they hold out on football and reap the benefits of basketball. A BE join would soothe some egos and be the type of PR move ND has always craved. On the other hand, the geography of the B10 is not lost on ND, nor is the PR involved with FINALLY joining a conference that has courted them relentlessly. BTW, the Michigan hate of ND actually goes back to the very early 1900s. After the first few friendlys it became very unfriendly. By the time Rockne was playing, Fritz Crisler wanted nothing to do with ND. He felt his “point-a-minute” teams were too good to even consider ND as an opponent. The series ended in 1909 and only resumed for Leahy’s first 2 years before going to another long hiatus ending in 1979. For this reason, I have always considered USC to be ND’s #1 rival, not Mich. USC-ND has been played every year since 1931 except for two war years when travel was restricted. Even if ND joined the B10 or BE, I would hope they would never give up the USC series. I live for a win over USC.
GO IRISH! Beat Trojans!
Pete —
Agree that USC is ND’s #1 rival. But our “most hated rival” is Michigan, IMO.
Near the end of that awful 2007 season, I suggested that moving ND football formally into the Big East made a bit of sense, esp for a struggling program trying to regain footing. The reasons were as follows:
1) 6-7 games against BE opponents would assure greater win %. Theoretically at least 🙂
2) We could still play annual games vs USC, Michigan, Navy, Purdue and a B12 school or another PAC 10 school. Keeps rivalries intact.
3) Two or more losses would not necessarily keep ND out of a New Years Day Bowl game. A good conference record is what really matters these days with conference bowl tie-ins.
4) Nice to have all sports in one place.
5) Would have negotiating leverage and likely able to keep all games and profits from the NBC contract. Big 10 would likely not stand for this.
Wally, all good points. But ND fans would rankle at the easier schedule concept. Losing seasons and the new scheduling formula which cuts back on marquee games has annual funds plummeting. A BE move would give consistency to the W-L record, but would not follow in the ND tradition of winning. It would be “hollow victory”. I can believe Mich is most hated for many, but for me USC is #1 in every category as a rival. I still hurt from “the push”. I was just walking to work this morning wondering what “coulda been” if we had not given up that 4th down 70 yard pass. Charlie would be even more arrogant, we would still have had several lousy and mediocre seasons, but oh, the glory of that win. It could have lasted me a lifetime!
I am back to correct myself. I should research first and talk later. My memory is not what it used to be. Fielding Yost coached the “point-a-minute” Michigan teams. He created the first hiatus. He was the Mich AD when Crisler coached the 1942 game, but not for the 1943 game. After ND won in 1943 Crisler claimed foul (ineligible player) and too much intensity by Leahy. That was it until 1978. As to the first hiatus, ND’s win in 1909, their first ever in the series, caused Michigan to cancel the 1910 meeting and not reschedule until 1942 when travel restrictions dictated that the rivalry resume. Enter Crisler and hiatus 2. I love ND football history.
From the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette on May 28:
Paterno Wants Big Ten To Expand — Just Not To South Bend
by Michael Rothstein, The Journal Gazette
For months now, iconic Penn State football coach Joe Paterno, the octogenarian that he is, has been lobbying for the Big Ten to expand.
He was back at it again this week, but this time he’s being more specific: No Notre Dame! At least that’s what he said while speaking in Allentown, Pa., according to the Associated Press.
Not that Notre Dame is looking, though. The Irish are part of the Big East in most sports and are one of the lone independents in football, but with an NBC television contract are one of the most profitable teams in the country.
Paterno said in the AP story if Notre Dame were to be interested, though, the Big Ten should say no because “they had their chance.” (end of article).
————————————————————————————————–
Well …. that was quite “warm”. Don’t think Charlie will be sending JoPa any more Christmas cards.
Joe Pa vs Greg Kincaid? I’m voting with you Greg! What does an old man like Paterno know anyway.
I don’t know, Pete. You tell us 🙂
OUCH!
Greg – way to get the conversation going.
As an unbiased observer of Notre Dame football, the Big Ten seems like the obvious choice. Rivalries from there remain intact, while still being able to play USC and either Navy or Army. It’s always competitive, unlike the Big East. And if it would result in the Big Ten having a championship like everybody else, I’m all for it.
I have to agree with the commentors that this upcoming season will factor in greatly 1) for the coaching staff and 2) for considering a conference alignment. Pete and Wally have mentioned 10-11 wins I think, and I don’t see that happening. They play an unrealistic schedule and can’t even beat Navy anymore.
Money rules everything around us which means stupidity is never far behind. Scheduling the Michigans, USC, BC, Purdue when they can’t beat Syracuse or Navy or win a bowl game should be a red flag (Beating Hawaii does not count as a Bowl win). Just look at their bowl game scores for the past ten years – they have been completely dominated except for by Georgia Tech, who is usually in the middle of the pack in the ACC.
Pride comes before the fall, and I think the fall will be after this season.
They will be fortunate to get 9 wins. Join the Big Ten, keep USC and schedule a cream puff or two like everyone else in the early going.
Uh … Rey … the Irish beat Navy last season. Oh … and they beat Michigan and Purdue, too. But let’s not let facts get in the way of forming our judgments. One reason that ND fans are optimistic is because Charlie’s staff has recruited very well and the “good players” are now juniors, sophs and freshman. Another reason that fans like Pete and myself are demanding 9+ wins is because this ’09 schedule is quite friendly compared to many of the past years:
S05 NEVADA 3:30pm NBC
S12 @ Michigan TBA
S19 MICHIGAN ST. 3:30pm NBC
S26 @ Purdue 8pm ABC/ESPN
O03 WASHINGTON 3:30pm NBC
O17 SOUTHERN CAL 3:30pm NBC
O24 BOSTON COLLEGE 3:30pm NBC
O31 Washington St. 7:30pm NBC(SA)
N07 NAVY 2:30pm NBC
N14 @ Pittsburgh TBA
N21 CONNECTICUT 2:30pm NBC
N28 @ Stanford 8pm ABC
But what has us nervous is that Charlie & staff have not shown a penchant for developing either players or a team cohesiveness. Eventually, you gotta figure that out … for CW, he better do it this season! That schedule is SCREAMING for 9 wins (or more). Don’t be surprised to see the Irish firmly in the Top 20 in some pre-season polls because everyone is expecting more success for the reasons enumerated above.
Wally –
I missed Navy by one season. Considering I am not an avid follower of ND, I apologize. And I don’t think I said they didn’t beat Purdue and Michigan. So let’s not allow accurate summaries to get in the way of our rebuttals.
But, if we look at Charlie Weis coached teams, he in FACT has lost to Michigan in 2007 (38-0) and 2006 when ND was ranked #2. He lost to BOTH Purdue and Michigan State in 2007, narrowly beat State in 2006 by 3 and lost to them by 3 in 2005. My point is against top notch Big Ten competition, ND has not done too well in the past few years. I believe there is an Ohio State drubbing in there in a bowl game as well.
And don’t let recruiting be the deciding factor. What is NDs identity? They just recruit the best in every position they can. Florida constantly recruits speed, Michigan under Lloyd recruited the typical big Midwestern boys to block. Nebraska before them recruited agile lineman for their triple option offense.
It looks like to me and others that ND has no clue who they are. That is the coaches fault and that is a huge problem with recruiting. It’s not alwasy about getting the best, but getting the best that fits what is already in place or the plan you have.
My point I was trying to make that I didn’t get across too well is that Greg’s article points out that ND, by joining the Big Ten, can essential play the same schedule if it wants, but have a better chance at a BCS bowl because of its conference affiliation with the Rose Bowl. Why play this ridiculously tough schedule every year if you have to work harder than everyone else to get the bowl you want?
That schedule does look a bit easier, but what’s the point if they go off to a bowl and get spanked by another SEC school who had a down year? Join the Big Ten and better your chances with bowl bids.
Rey —
From ND’s perspective, joining the Big 10 will not increase their chance of getting to a BCS bowl, but it will increase their chance of going to a decent bowl most years because of the conference’s tie-ins for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place team teams, etc. Right now, if ND is in the Top 10, they’re pretty much guaranteed a BCS game anyway … they don’t need B10 membership for that. And I don’t know if ND is really interested in that “secondary bowl benefit” (at the expense of sharing all their revenue with the B10). Football-wise, ND wants to stand on on their own — on the field and off the field. With Brady Quinn and gang, they went to a couple BCS games (good!) but didn’t do well in them (bad!) and made a lot of money (good!). THEY think they can get back to that point AND start doing well vs BCS competition. Personally, I’m skeptical that they are ready to compete with the perennial front-runners and I will continue to hold that view until i actually see ND beat USC and/or a high quality team on the road and win ~80% of their games overall.
From the Big 10 perspective, I think it would be a very good thing for them to add ND as a 12th team for the reasons enumerated in previous posts. HOWEVER, I don’t think certain conference members would welcome ND … I mentioned before that Michigan and ND don’t like eachother at all and now we know that JoPa has jealousy “issues” as well. So if not ND, why not recruit Pitt away from the BE, Iowa State or Mizzou away from B12, or one of the Kentucky schools — L’Ville or UK?