If you thought choosing the four greatest catchers of all-time was difficult, just wait until our next discussion gets going. I could barely narrow my list down to six, and Smitty expressed having considerable difficulty as well. But, first things first…it’s time to reveal the four heads to be displayed on the south face of Mount Otsego:
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Ivan Rodriguez
Thanks for all of your contributions. I know I came away from the discussion feeling like I was under-appreciating Campanella, and that I hadn’t given enough consideration to Josh Gibson.
So, now it’s time to get on to the next discussion, of a position well stocked with power hitters–including 8 of the 25 members of the 500 home run club–and well represented in the Hall of Fame, with 21 honorees.
That position, of course, is First Base.
Smitty’s Six
Jeff Bagwell
To me, Jeff Bagwell flew under the radar for most of his career, but not anymore. The 1991 NL Rookie of the Year, four-time All-Star and 1994 NL MVP, Bagwell was part of the Killer B’s lineup that made the Houston Astros a playoff contender for most of the 1990’s. Career numbers of .297 batting average, 449 HR and 1,529 RBI rank him amongst the elite of first basemen. Bagwell was certainly a model of longevity, hitting more than 30 HR in nine seasons and had over 100 RBI in 8 seasons. He also stole 202 bases during his career and was the first first basemen—say that 10 times in a row—to become a member of the 30/30 club. Bagwell’s career Win Shares were 388.
Jimmie Foxx
The three-time MVP split his career between the Philadelphia Athletics and the Boston Red Sox. He was considered to be one of the first power hitters in Major League Baseball. Lefty Gomez once described him as having “muscles in his hair”. He hit over 50 HR twice, including 58 in 1932 with the A’s. His 50 homers was a season high for the Boston Red Sox until David Ortiz eclipsed the mark in 2006. With a lifetime batting average of .325, 534 HR, 1,922 RBI and 435 career Win Shares, you can put Mr. Foxx’s name next to Mr. Gehrig’s.
Lou Gehrig
Speaking of Mr. Gehrig, just mentioning the name—Lou Gehrig—says it all. His 2,130 consecutive games played stood as a record until Cal Ripken eclipsed it 1995. His 23 career grand slams still stand as a record in Major League Baseball. Throw in the two-time MVP’s lifetime batting average of .340, 493 HR, 1,995 RBI, and he is a shoo-in for this side of the mountain. Gehrig’s career Win Shares were 489.
Hank Greenberg
Hank might be one the most controversial picks for me, but I think he should be there. Greenberg missed more than three seasons due to World War II. That didn’t prevent Greenberg from putting up career marks of .331 batting average, 331 HR, and 1,276 RBI. Greenberg owns the 8th highest slugging percentage in major league history, and was a 2-time American League MVP. His career Win Shares were only 267, but I am not holding that against him.
Willie McCovey
You can call him “Stretch” or you can call him “Big Mac”. But when you have a cove named after you, you can’t be doing things half bad. With a career batting average of only .270, McCovey also hit 521 HR and 1,555 RBI. He was a six-time All-Star who won the Rookie of the Year award in 1959 and the MVP in 1969. McCovey also played a good portion of his career when pitching dominated the major leagues, thanks to a raised pitcher’s mound. McCovey’s career Win Shares were 408.
Eddie Murray
“Steady Eddie” is considered by many to be one of the best switch hitters in the history of the game. Position-wise he was just as steady, winning 3 Gold Glove awards. Career marks of .287 batting average, 3,255 hits, 504 HR and 1,917 RBI put him in the upper echelon of first basemen. His career home runs are second amongst switch hitters, behind only Mickey Mantle. Murray’s career Win Shares were an impressive 437.
Chas’ Picks
Jeff Bagwell
One of two players on my short list who were born on the same day, Bagwell has to be considered among the first basemen with the greatest all-around games. 449 career HR, 202 SB, a .408 OBP, and a very good defensive player (one Gold Glove), he also measures up in the SABRmetric categories (388 Win Shares, 149 OPS+). Additionally, he is 6th all-time among first basemen in the Bill James created Hall of Fame Standards–a statistical measure of a player’s HOF worthiness–with a score of 59 (50 represents an average Hall of Famer).
Jimmie Foxx
“Double X” was a nine-time All Star, and the first player in major league history to win back-to-back MVP awards, a feat that only 10 players have accomplished since. Incidentally, until Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds became the 10th and 11th to do it, the original nine all fit nicely into a multi-part trivia question, with each of the nine positions on the field being represented. Foxx also posted some tremendous offensive numbers (534 HR, 1922 RBI, 1751 runs, 163 OPS+), his 435 Win Shares are third all-time among first basemen, and his 72 HOF Standards mark is matched only by Lou Gehrig.
Lou Gehrig
No justification is really necessary here, as “The Iron Horse” tops the all-time list of first basemen in Win Shares (489), HOF Standards (72), and OPS+ (179). He also finished in the top five in MVP voting eight times, winning twice, and accumulated 493 HR, 1995 RBI (5th all-time) and 1888 runs (10th) in an incredible 17-year career that, amazingly, was not overshadowed by Babe Ruth.
Harmon Killebrew
Killebrew still ranks in the top ten all-time in home runs with 573, despite a recent assault on that list that some may consider artificial. He was an 11-time All-Star, and finished in the top five in MVP voting six times, winning once. His lifetime batting average was only .256, but he makes up for it by ranking 15th all-time in walks and 9th in homers, resulting in a 143 career OPS+. He also adds 374 Win Shares to his Mt. Otsego resume.
Eddie Murray
A model of consistent excellence over a 21-year career, Murray ranks second all-time among first basemen with 437 Win Shares, was an eight-time All Star, three-time Gold Glover, and finished in the top six in MVP voting seven times. He’s also one of only four players in history with 500 career HR and 3000 career hits, and ranks 9th all-time in RBI with 1917.
Frank Thomas
“The Big Hurt” was born on May 27, 1968–the same day as Jeff Bagwell–and, although he was a DH more than half his career, he still played almost 1000 games at first base. His offensive numbers are rivaled by only Murray among modern first basemen (.301 BA, .419 OBP, 156 OPS+, 521 HR, 1704 RBI). He finished in the top eight in MVP voting nine times, winning twice, something even Murray can’t say. Thomas also ranks 5th all-time among 20th century first basemen in Win Shares (405) and HOF Standards (60). Cap Anson’s 63 drops him to 6th overall in the latter category.
What do you have to say? We’d like to know.
I sure do appreciate being mentioned with all of these great players. This is a swell idea you guys have here. Of course I have to mention Ben Taylor with your first basemen. I know he won’t get much credit, but that’s okay. He always was a nice guy. Gotta go – time for my rub down. Nothing like a deep tissue massage from an angel. See y’all soon.
No love for your teammate, Buck Leonard, JG? You know, the guy who was otherwise known as “The Black Lou Gehrig” since he protected you in the batting order. I’m sure he’s feeling slighted.
No particular order.
Eddie Murray, 3000 hits, 500 homeruns enough said.
Lou Gehrig, just cause its Lou Gehrig, and he was not overshadowed by Babe Ruth.
I think Bagwell was underrated, but I still would not put him as one of the 4 best ever. Same goes for Big Hurt. I think both of them are Hall of Famers, but best ever, NO!
Killebrew’s lifetime batting average is not enough,
I don’t think 9 seasons is enough to include Pujols, eventhough he averages .335 batting average, 42 homeruns, 125 runs scored and 129 RBI’s. But I don’t like the list so I’m adding him to my picks.
I know I’m reaching a bit with this one, but where is the fun in playing it safe.
Rod Carew played most of his games at first base, but is not the power hitter that we are used to seeing at the position. He is an 18 time All star, with a career .328 BA. In modern baseball(starting in 1903), Eddie Murray is the only first baseman with more hits than him.
In conclusion;
Gehrig
Murray
Pujols
Foxx
My top 4 are:
— Gehrig
— Foxx
— Greenberg — .331 career avg and 8th highest Slugging % ever. He’s got to be in the top 4, esp considering time lost to WWII.
— Murray
I can’t put Pujols in here yet, but I believe he’ll unquestionably be in the top 4 when his career is over … unless of course he pulls “a Manny”. But I think he’s smarter than that. (Gino, thanks for bringing his name up).
What hurts Bagwell, IMO, is that he didn’t do particularly well in the post-season. Maybe that’s baggage that I’m carrying … lived in Houston when they had really good teams with the “Killer B’s”, but they played well below expectations when playoff time came around. Frank Thomas ranks ahead of Bagwell in my book anyway.
I like the Albert Pujols idea, but I agree with Wally. I think it won’t be long until we can put him in the top four, but my inclination is to say not just yet.
In my opinion the top three are pretty easy: Gehrig, Foxx, Murray. After that, a case could be made for a number of guys, including Bagwell, Thomas, Greenberg, Killebrew, McCovey, Johnny Mize, and Cap Anson. I don’t think you’d be crazy to go with any one of them as the fourth. I’m going to take a closer look at Greenberg’s shortened career again.
I’m glad you mentioned Rod Carew, Gino. This gives me a chance to talk about the occasional dilemma of what position to consider a certain player at. Carew played more games at 1B than 2B, but when it’s necessary to assign him a position for purposes such as this, I’ve always seen him considered at 2B. It may be because a little more of his prime was at 2B. Ernie Banks is another such case. He played more games at 1B than at SS, but how many people know that? He definitely played more of his prime at SS.
Smitty and I decided that we’re considering Carew at 2B and Banks at SS. There will be other cases (Pete Rose, for instance) that we’re yet to talk about. We also decided that, since we’re not going to do a DH category, we’re considering Paul Molitor at 3B. That being said, if you happen to think that Carew should make the mountain at 1B and not 2B, feel free to throw that into the discussion.
I don’t think he should be on for either position. As I said it myself I was stretching.
Like Bagwell he deserves a nomination, nothing more.
He wouldn’t even be on the Mount for Latin players!!!
Someone please explain “career win shares.”
Rey – I wish I could explain win shares.
Harmon Killebrew kinda gets a raw deal – a home run hitter during the 60s at Metropolitan Stadium? Yeek! Down the line at the Met measured 329. The alleys were 360-370. Not to mention playing during April and May in Minnesota. I’m thinking the ball didn’t carry too well. Add in there the higher mound and Killebrew didn’t have much help with his power numbers. Prior to that Killebrew played at Griffith Stadium – 350-380 down the line.
Win Shares are a Bill James created statistic to measure a player’s overall contribution to his team’s wins, based on hitting, fielding and pitching. I read most of the 1200-page book that he wrote methodically explaining the system, and it seems to me like the best overall method of evaluating players, and comparing them across eras. That said, it’s a cumulative stat, so players with longer careers will accumulate more win shares.
James has stated that, “Historically, 400 Win Shares means absolute enshrinement in the Hall of Fame and 300 Win Shares makes a player more likely than not to be a Hall of Famer. However, future standards may be different. Players with 300-350 Win Shares in the past have generally gone into the Hall of Fame. In the future, they more often will not”.
20 Win Shares in a season is very good. 30 is great. All of these players averaged over 22 per season for the careers, except Cap Anson, so that’s considered pretty impressive. Gehrig averaged over 30, and Foxx averaged around 28, which are pretty phenomenal numbers.
I hope that helps Rey.
Nice point about Killebrew, Casey. I hadn’t even considered that.
Rey, in response to a comment you made over on your post, just because all of the names have been mentioned doesn’t mean we don’t want to know who your picks are, especially since I think that, after the top three, it’s a pretty tough call. Or, maybe you don’t agree with my top three. That would definitely be worth hearing about.
Thanks, Chas. It sounds similar to the +/- system implemented in the NBA. The impact a particular player has when he’s actually playing.
Well, the concept is similar, in that it’s one statistic intended to measure the sum of a player’s performance, but it hasn’t nothing to do with runs scored or allowed while the player is in the game. It takes the team’s wins and attempts to divide them among all of the players who have contributed based on the pre-determined value of certain statistics.
So, for instance, if the Yankees win 90 games, and Alex Rodriguez hits 50 home runs, except 35 of them are in losses, he doesn’t get credit for the value of only the home runs hit in wins. He simply gets credit for the pre-determined value per home run multiplied by 50.
For some reason, the system assigns two full win shares per team win, so if a player earns 30 win shares in a season, it’s believed that he is personally responsible for 15 of his team’s wins. Of course, that means if you had 9 of him, you’d win 135 games.
My top 3: Double X, Gehrig, and Greenberg. All old-timers, which leads to my thinking on #4. No way do I consider Bagwell, not even in my top 7 or 8. He is maybe the best of his time, but it’s like comparing apples to oranges (or Josh Gibson to MLB stars). Stats notwithstanding, I just don’t see it. I’d probably give #4 to Murray, but I have some of the same hesitations. Besides, statistically he (and McCovey don’t match up to the top 3 (or even Bagwell), but that’s it from me.
Thanks for the input, Pete. I was hoping for someone to re-stimulate this discussion a little.
I think Bagwell’s way under-rated, but I’m not surprised that, by most people’s “eye test” or whatever it’s called, he just doesn’t seem like he’s one of the four best of all-time. On the other hand, I would think that Murray would, and it appears that he does for most people.
I’m wondering if there are certain people who so revere the legends whom they’ve never seen play (Gehrig, Foxx, etc.) that they have a tough time comparing modern players, whom they’ve seen succeed and fail. If this is the case, there are probably also others who favor players they’ve seen. I know it feels weird to me to rank a modern band ahead of the Beatles, so I usually exclude them from such discussions.
Chas, good points all (ps – I HATE the Beatles)! One of my measures of greatness is memorability (if that is a word)! Though I never saw Double X or the Iron Horse or Greenberg play, years later their names still come up in this kind of discussion. I do not believe Bagwell’s will! True aficionados will know him, but not the typical fan. But the typical fan probably knows the top 3. It’s old school to say this, but I just don’t think they make first basemen the way they used to. I don’t believe I would be so old-timer hung up at any other position, but at first base those 3 seem like the only “best”. I am realizing how hard it is to compare different eras however. The individual awards are not always there. The competition is not the same. The contemporaries are a comparison factor. Hence the memorability measuring stick. I think all of the top catchers met that standard except maybe Pudge. I think Murray meets that standard better than Bagwell, maybe based on what his teams accomplished or maybe because he was the second best switch hitter (statistically) after the unforgettable Mickey Mantle. Regardless of my taste, the Beatles are memorable. Very few modern bands fit that description. Hence I agree; leave those others out of the discussion.
Well, I have a feeling Albert Pujols will have no problem satisfying the memorability criterion, and will be in the top four in a few more years. The guy started out as a tremendous hitter without a regular position. Although he was still probably an average defender, remember that he moved around from 3B to LF to 1B early on in his career. Then, he became a Gold Glove first baseman. This year, all of a sudden, he has 5 stolen bases. In fact, pretty soon I think I’ll be calling him the greatest player I’ve ever seen.
Pujols might indeed prove memorable. Talk to me in 30 years. The problem with the memorability factor is that baseball is no longer America’s pastime. The percentage of people in this country who follow baseball is a lot less than it was in the Golden Age of sports. That makes it tough to be memorable. But Pujols is one who can beat he odds.
Where is Dan Brouthers or George Sisler?