Just thought it was inevitable that we start this conversation, given Curt Schilling’s retirement announcement yesterday. So … is Curt Schilling a Hall of Famer? And if so, is he a first ballot guy or someone who’ll wait a few years?
Saw a very impressive stat last night … Schilling had something like a 2.28 ERA in the post-season, which is the best ever for someone with a minimum of 15 starts. That’s a great conversation starter for him, but there are other aspects to the discussion. How does the Bench feel about Schilling?
I’d have to say…yes, he’s a Hall of Famer. If there’s still a small percentage of people who think Jack Morris deserves it, Schilling is clearly better than him, in terms of regular season and postseason. Morris has more wins (254-216), but Schilling dominates him in everything else.
I don’t like to place too much weight on the postseason (at least not to the extent, that some people want to induct players based on it alone), but it’s hard to overlook Schilling’s credentials (11-2, 2.23, 4 CG in 19 starts, 120 K in 133 IP), and his team won 10 of 12 series that he played in.
We all know that a Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer, and the first-ballot worthiness discussion is a little silly, except to make predictions. I predict he won’t get in on the first ballot.
Career strikeout/walk ratio:
1. Tommy Bond – 4.440
2. Curt Schilling – 4.380
3. Pedro Martinez – 4.140
4. Ben Sheets – 3.850
5. Mariano Rivera – 3.830
6. Jim Whitney – 3.820
7. Johan Santana – 3.720
8. Doug Jones – 3.680
Jon Lieber – 3.680
10. Bret Saberhagen – 3.640
John Ward – 3.640
Tommy Bond played his final game in 1884. There are, obviously, some non-Hall worthy names on this list, so I’m not basing his case on that stat alone, but he’s the only guy on that list with over 3000 IP who played in the 20th century.
Here’s W-L record, winning %, and ERA for a select few pitchers:
C. Schilling: 216-146 (.597) 3.46 ERA
C. Hunter: 224-166 (.574) 3.26 ERA (HoF)
B. Blyleven: 287-250 (.534) 3.31
J. Morris: 254-156 (.619) 3.90
N. Ryan: 324-292 (.526) 3.19 (HoF)
G. Maddux: 355-227 (.610) 3.16 (HoF for sure)
J. Palmer: 268-152 (.638) 2.86 (HoF)
D. Sutton: 324-256 (.559) 3.26 (HoF)
In my humble opinion, the only things that matter for a starting pitcher are winning and ERA. Strikeouts and other ratios like WHIP and K/BB are relatively meaningless because they’re explanatory, not results. The bottom line is: a) did you keep the other team from scoring? and b) did your team win? Can’t look at just one of these in isolation. Hurlers who perform for poor offensive teams won’t have the winning %, but they should have a great ERA to be considered Hall material. Flip the coin and I want a competitor who wins a lot more often than he loses.
My opinion: Schilling and Jack Morris compare favorably to Catfish Hunter who’s in the Hall. Can’t understand why Morris isn’t in … how many pitchers win 62% of their games? Plus we know how good he was in the post season. Schilling gets the nod from me. Agree with Chas that he won’t get in right away, but will eventually.
Hmmmm…..in all your humility, Wally, you left out 30 losses by Morris. He was 254-186 lifetime, for a .577 winning percentage.
Ah … sorry … I calc’d win % myself … must have fat-fingered it on my ten key. Good catch.
Sorry to join this conversation a little late.
Curt schilling is absolutely positively NOT a hall of famer.
You are all concentrating on what he has, and forgetting on what he is lacking. He never won a Cy Young award. In the era that he supposedly dominated, he was never the best pitcher in his league. You mentioned Jack Morris, I’ll mention another guy Bert Blyleven, 287 wins and 3701 strikeouts. He is in the top 5 in strikeouts all time. He is not a hall of famer. Yes he has 250 losses, but he also has a career 3.31 era, which leads me to believe that his losses are more attributed to a bad team than to bad pitching.
As for the comparison to Catfish Hunter, that’s just not comparable. Catfish won more than 20 games 5 years in a row, including 25 in 1974. His number of wins is close to Schilling’s cause he played 5 less seasons.
Wally,
As for the complete list you are comparing Schilling in a vaccuum with a bunch of guys that were bigger than baseball. Yes, you don’t like anything other than win% and era, but the other stats are still there. You can’t put a guy like Nolan Ryan in anything with out considering the strikeouts. All the guys in that list are known for something other than win% and era.
Long story short we are all in love with Schilling’s Ketchup sock. Curt Schilling is a great pitcher and we were all lucky to have seen him pitch. But he is not a hall of famer!!!!
Gino!!!!
Great to hear from you. And way to bring it on the Bench.
Gino … with all due respect for your opinion, a pitcher’s job is simply to prevent the opponent from scoring and to win. That’s simply all that matters, and quite frankly, ERA is THE MOST IMPORTANT pitching stat. Winning % is important, but it is influenced by a lot of other factors (back to your Blyleven argument, which I support). Strikeouts are WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over-rated when it comes to evaluating how effective a pitcher is. You don’t get extra runs in a game if you have more strikeouts. As are homeruns allowed. A lot of great pitchers gave up a ton of solo HRs.
Nolan Ryan is in the HoF because he was a freak … not because he was a great pitcher … although I will admit he was close to a great pitcher during the 2nd half of his career. 7 no-hitters and a blazing fastball … those are the real reasons he’s in. He put people in the seats because of his phenomenal physical attributes. But it was his curveball that he finally figured how to get over the plate that made him a pitcher instead of a thrower during the back half of his career.
I don’t think Don Sutton, Catfish or Jack Morris were “bigger than baseball”.
By the way, Greg Maddux is the perfect example of what you want in a pitcher … get ahead in the count, make ’em hit grounders, throw minimal pitches, keep the walks down, great ERA, compete like a bulldog, and win. Lots of strikeouts not necessary … just keep ’em from crossing the plate.
Yes.
I know someone who will not be in the hall of fame (besides you Wally), and that is Dice “the nibbler” Kaye.