Couldn’t help but notice ESPN’s recently concluded series on this topic hosted by Rick Reilly. I was both intrigued by the overall series and then proud that my home state of Illinois was either selected or voted as having the “best Mt. Rushmore of Sports”. Michael Jordan, Walter Payton, Ernie Banks & Mike Ditka … that’s a pretty good list, but I’m not sure how Ditka made it … think I might’ve gone with George Halas, Red Grange or Bobby Hull before Ditka. Anyway, that’s the subject of a separate debate among us Illini .. or … Illinoisans … or… Noisans… or … Annoyans … what the heck are we???? That’s it … I’m a Chicagoan … case closed! Me and Scarface … we’re practically brudders.
ANYWAY, the real subject of this post is to ask YOU, the readers, to offer up your own personal Mount Rushmore of Sports. There aren’t really any rules … you can base yours on who you think ought to be on EVERYONE’s list … you can base yours purely on who is most meaningful to YOU. It can be international, national, regional … whatever. My only request is that you pick 5 people in sports, not 4, so this is actually a Mt Rushmore-more of Sports. So pick 5 that work for you and share ’em with our readers.
Here’s mine, in no particular order:
- Babe Ruth — the most prolific hitter ever; you could say that “Baseball is The Sport that Ruth Built”. His stats relative to his peers are AMAZING.
- Walter Payton — to me, he epitomized the words “football player” and “class”. I started watching the NFL because of Sweetness.
- Joe Montana — to me, the greatest QB I’ve ever seen. A true winner; one of the greatest pressure/big game players … both at Notre Dame and with the 49ers.
- Michael Jordan — I lived in Chicago during MJ’s entire career with the 6-time champion Bulls. He was one of a kind and raised the bar for future NBA stars.
- Wayne Gretzky — took pro hockey on his back and really made it popular in the States. A great player, a champion, an ambassador of the game.
Feel free to comment on mine, but by all means send us yours!
Once again Pete – you da man! I debated over Sugar Ray Leonard for a considerable time. As JD will tell you, Sugar Ray was my favorite growing up. I actually hated Ali at the time. Took me a while to understand everything going on at the time.
Pete
Since you bring up Sugar Ray – JD and I were talking today about boxing. To me the Golden Age of Boxing was the 70s(with a little bit of the 80s) – ’76 Olympic team, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Cooney, Jimmy Young, Teofiolo Stevenson, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler. Everything since then he been the mess created by Don King and Mike Tyson. Has boxing ever had a period of time better than that of the 70s?
Leonard had an impact at the Olympic level that Ali could not achieve until he was a pro. Some bubble list amateurs: Mia Hamm (at UNC), Carl Lewis, Magic Johnson (MSU) and Larry Bird (ISU).
Carl Lewis would have to go on my amateur MT. Rushmore as would Edwin Moses.
The only thing about Lewis and Moses is that track athletes walk a fine line when it comes to amateur/pro status. As to boxing at it’s height? The 20’s – 30’s is referred to often as the Golden Age of sports. Guys like Ruth and Gehrig and Grange and Owens and Tunney and Louis and Seabiscuit and War Admiral were renowned celebrities who were virtually idolized. While the boxing of the ’70s is certainly better than the multiple-organization, Mike Tyson fiascoes of today, they do not measure up to boxing as an attraction in the Golden Age.
Gotta give my Mt. Rushmore before I read all of the comments:
Overall…
Pele
Babe Ruth
Wayne Gretsky
Magic Johnson
because they all made their sport relavent to an American audience
now I will read the other respnses and comment further…
sorry, my 5th is:
Hank Aaron
for all those home runs, and knocking down the doors that Jackie wasn’t able to finish off
How about a non-athlete Rushmore (once we define what an athlete is)?
John Wooden
Knite Rockne
Pete Rozelle
Vince Lombardi
Branch Rickey
Seems heavily loaded with football people. Notice; no race horses or race cars. They are athletes!
George Halas was on my original list, but he’s bubble status. Krzyzewski is not Wooden-esque (yet). Steinbrenner deserves consideration, but I would never put him on my list just on the principle of the matter.
Sorry for the typo on Rockne; meant Knute.
Muels, I bubbled Pele for the very reason that you included him – his impact in USA. He certainly seemed to heighten our awareness of soccer in this country, but soccer’s still not relevant to the mainstream.
I am going to do a post with my baseball Mount Rushmore, but here are my picks for all sports, admitting my limited knowledge of some sports:
Athletes:
Babe Ruth
Muhammad Ali
Michael Jordan (just realized he’s not in the HOF yet)
Wayne Gretsky
Jim Brown
Real original, I realize. Don’t worry my baseball picks will be more interesting.
Non-athletes:
Joe Paterno
John Wooden
Vince Lombardi
Branch Rickey
Red Auerbach
Must add Howard Cosell to my bubble of non-athletes.
Chas, Auerbach is a brilliant addition. Don’t know why he did not occur to me. Makes me also wonder why Russell or Chamberlain have not appeared on any one’s Rushmore. Speaks to the awesomeness of Jordan I guess.
All bubble people because their impact is not usually on mainstream society (Wooden and Rockne are exceptions), but how about the builders of college dynasties:
Anson Dorrance – UNC Women’s soccer;
Pat Summit and Gino Auriemma ( I can’t stand him) in Women’s basketball;
Paul “Bear” Bryant;
Dean Smith and Mike Krzyszewski;
Dan Gable (Iowa wrestling).
Ooo, Pete – I like where this is going. Your Dan Gable pick reminded me of another wrestling great.
I’m going to take us back to the amatuer athletes and throw in Cael Sanderson. Only four time national champion and NEVER lost a collegiate match (159-0) while wrestling at Iowa State. He also won an Olympic gold.
Joe Paterno?!?!?!?
Sorry … that’s right … there are no wrong answers … only what works for Chas. Repeat after me … there are no …
Well, let’s see Wally…
*The winningest coach in D-1 history.
*The most bowl victories of any coach in D-1 history.
*The most undefeated seasons of any coach in D-1 history.
*One of the few D-1 coaches who is a true leader of student-athletes, consistently graduating players at rates well above the national average.
*Has donated over $4 million over the course of his career to his institution. As a result, the expansion of the college’s main library is named after him.
Seems to exemplify that definition of sportsman that was discussed earlier.
That comment gets my nomination for the most passive-aggressive and hypocritical comment I’ve seen on here.
ND’s Mt. Rushmore of coaches:
Ty Willingham
Bob Davie
Gerry Faust
George O’Leary
Rey, I see fatherhood has made you quite the comedian. Those ND coaches aren’t rushmore, they’re not passmore. they’re just losemore. Good addition with Sanderson.
I’m just bustin’ chops. I graduated from Temple, where most HS teams could compete with us.
Chas – HELMET STICKER!!!!!!!
Chas —
First of all, Joe Pa is a great CFB coach/icon. Don’t get me wrong … I respect him a great deal. But when it comes to talking about the “greatest CFB coach in history” (other post) most wins doesn’t do it for me. You’re gonna have a boatload of wins in 43 years. Neither do undefeated seasons. Bowl games, shmowl games. Remember, Penn State was hiding out in the east for several decades when the only decent teams out there were Pitt and maybe Syracuse … once in a while. So they beat the crap out of the eastern powers Kent State, Temple (sorry Rey), Cinci and Ohio U every year until the big game vs Pitt came up. For decades, Penn State was a school that could look pretty good record wise while not really being all that good. Until joining the Big 10, being the Beast of the East was more akin to being the best AAA baseball team. But their fan base sees 10-2 consistently every year and thinks the coach is the best thing since the Beatles. This is not to say PSU didn’t have some great teams … they certainly did in the ’80s. But … sorry … if you’re gonna coach since ’66, I would hope you’d have at least 3-4 National titles to your credit in order to be hailed as the “greatest CFB coach ever”. I think more credit goes to the Penn State administration for not firing him after a couple instances of consecutive losing seasons. Most “football powers” woulda kicked Joe out 3 or 4 times since ’66.
Your passion for JoPa is commendable … and you’re certainly entitled to have him on your MRoS. I was just shocked to see him on there with Wooden, Auerbach and Lombardi, who are all great (multiple) champions … but since I now know you’re a PSU grad … it makes sense.
Wally, in defense of Joe Pa on MRoS he IS the Penn State program. When I look at UNC or Duke or Kansas basketball or Alabama or OSU or USC football I see PROGRAMS that have flourished under many coaches, but at PSU only one man has been responsible for all their success. When he leaves, we may find that it is the program, not the man. But for now, I see him Rushmore-worthy. And the longevity thing, that adds to the worthiness. Is he the best football coach ever? Not as long as the name Rockne is remembered. Is he the best today? You can make an argument for that case. But without a doubt, he is Rushmore material. He is an icon, better known in the USA than is Saban or Meyer or Weis or Carroll. BTW, when he came to Spencerport HS to secure Al Zematais’ signature on a letter of intent, I was introduced to him as the “ND guy”. He took time to chat with me, part of which was later quoted in the Rochester paper (“ND, nice little prep school, that”), but he impressed me no end with his personality and with his physical size. He was so much bigger than he seems on tv. When he left that day, before he exited the building he had to find the ND guy to say good bye. Rushmore or not, best ever or not, he will always be one of my favorites.
6 of 8 people above put Wayne Gretzky on their Mt.. I guess that is a majority if such a thing can happen when the sample size is 8. Of course 1 of the 6 admitted to not knowing much about hockey.
So what I have here falls under Pete’s ‘unsupported by anything other than gut feelings.’ Well maybe a little more than gut feelings.
Looking at the NHL record books – ‘The Great One’ holds nine of the top eleven all-time single-season point totals. I am saying this up front because I don’t want anyone to think I am ignoring those facts. Yes, Gretzky’s point totals by season rank 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,10,11.
But time can possess that unique ability to diminish the importance of some details.
For the 1979-80 season the NHL had it right. During that campaign teams played as close to a balanced schedule as possible – with 21 teams playing 80 games there would be some minor disparity. Then in the playoffs they seeded teams 1-16 and waged war. There were no divisional playoffs, no conference play – it was the NHL playoffs. And the two best teams advanced to the finals.
After that season the NHL went to an imbalanced schedule which is to say each team would play 8 games against each opponent in their division – or 32 of their regular season games. The remaining 48 games would be divided up by playing the other 15 teams – the extra three games stayed within the conference.
This is relevant because? Edmonton played in the Campbell Conference’s Smythe Division. The other teams in that division? The Vancouver canucks, Los Angeles Kings, Calgary Flames, and the Colorado Rockies. For the first half of the 80s it was rare that any team other than Edmonton had a winning record in that division. In fact for 81-82 season the Minnesota North Stars were the only other team in the entire conference to have a winning record.
Meanwhile in the Prince of Wales Conference – 7 of the 10 teams posted records above .500 Why the disparity? The Prince of Wales was a FAR superior conference.
The Montreal Candiens, who finished first in the Adams Division went 10-3-2 vs. teams in the Smythe. The Philly Flyers who finished 3rd in the Patrick went 9-4-2. Even the lowly Washington Capitals who finished dead last in the Patrick went 6-6-2 vs. the Smythe. The Caps finished the year 26-41-13. They had almost 25% of their season wins in less than 19% of their games.
The following season – the same conditions existed. The next year the Flames nosed above .500. The division improved from there.
Is it possible that if the Oilers had to play in the Prince of Wales Conference Gretzky’s numbers would be more… mortal – like?
Gretzky nor the Oilers are to blame. No one is to blame. Those were the conditions, and he/they thrived.
Something else to consider – Gretzky led the league in assists an astounding 16 times establishing the record of 163 in a season. The last four times he led the league with under 100. In fact 67 was good enough in the 97-98 season. Do you think the style of play changed a little? That is to say that after the league did everything in its power to increase scoring in the 80s, teams started to figure out how to slow down play?
I am not suggesting that Gretzky or the Oilers should have done anything differently. They played the hand they were dealt and played it very well. But I am suggesting that Gretzky’s numbers need to be put into context of the league he was playing in at that time.
Wonder what would happen if we invited in…let’s say…50 Edmonton Oiler fans from the 80s? Of course we would have to warn them of the Wally effect – that anything not in Wally’s conscious mind is liable to be dismissed. But if we brought in these 50, I wonder how many would agree. Do you think any Oiler fans would put mark Messier on their MT.? After all Messier did sip from the Cup two more times than ‘The Great One.’
Don’t get me wrong – on the offensive end of the ice Gretzky was stunning. He created play-making from behind the opponent’s goal. It was a duh moment for everyone because we all realized someone should have done this before. But numbers are just that figures – on paper, screen or whatever.
Without a context numbers can be misleading.
So forgive me as we stand in front of the Gretzky monument. I will remain respectful and bow. But I won’t genuflect.
I knew the lack of national championships would be held against him. Admittedly, the three undefeated seasons prior to the 80s were before my time, so I really don’t know to what extent they were disrespected by not getting a shot at a national championship.
As far as Knute Rockne is concerned, I don’t know much about college football pre-1930, so to me comparing Rockne to Paterno is like comparing John McGraw to Sparky Anderson.
What I do know is that Joe Paterno’s record vs. Notre Dame is 9 wins, 6 losses. ‘Nuff said. 🙂
Wow – let me see if I can catch up to speed..
For my amateur Rushmore – I would include Ernie Davis. I didn’t see his name being mentioned anywhere here, but by all accounts – he was better then Jim Brown and certainly knocked down some monumental doors by being the first African American to win the Heisman Trophy.
As for hunting. I believe there is certainly a level of sport in hunting/shooting. Especially when you look at Olympians that cross country skiing for miles, stop have to hit a target, continue skiing and then hit another target.
To compare hunting to golf ? No way.. To be a competitive golfer you have to be a very good athlete. Sure some guys can get away with being a little overweight, but more and more that is changing with the game of golf. Think about it – on average, these players are walking about 8-10 miles per day. From there, they are skilled enough with their hand and the golf clubs to shape shots based on what the hole dictates. Shot from 150 yards – guys can hit it 152 and get to spin back to within 3 or 4 feet of the hole. Get in trouble – guys have to use strength and imagination to get themselves out of it.
Putting? Guys have to read slope, grain of the green, conditions (wet or dry) and judge speed, angle and then hit the put accurately. Hunting certainly takes some skill to hit a target , but for a majority of hunters – they hike to their “area”, sit in a tree stand, change their diapers and wait for that one target to come along. Don’t compare it to golf..
Non-Athlete Rushmore:
John Wooden
Knute Rockne
Scotty Bowman
Branch Rickey
Vince Lombardi
Amateur Athletes:
Jesse Owens
Eric Heiden
Ernie Davis
Mia Hamm
Michael Phelps
Chas – jut saw you mentioned Branch Rickey on here.. And I was thinking that I was going to be the only one listing him on here..
Great minds think alike.. 🙂
I remember seeing skeet-shooting on the ABC Wide World of Sports and thinking there was NO WAY I could hit that target.
Smitty, I also had Rickey on my non-athlete list (the first one posted). Digging for a little credit here. However, BIG credit to you for Ernie Davis. Awesome addition to the amateur list.
BTW, Smitty, our non-athlete list is almost identical except for my Pete Rozelle vs your Scotty Bowman. You might think somewhat like the great mind of Chas, but you are WAY TOO close to the brain-dead thinking of this old man. Sorry bud!
Casey —
At the moment, YOU are not in my conscious mind. Therefore, YOU are dismissed. (ref. “Wally Effect” in action … see comment #74).
Out.
Pete – I can handle being compared to both worlds – A little bit of the “new school” thinking and a little bit of the ” not so old – old school”. 🙂 I consider it a compliment to be on the same wave length with everyone on this site..
Sorry, I didn’t see you put Branch Rickey down before.. There are so many posts on this thread – I had a hard time catching up.
I thought about Pete Rozelle too.. I also thought about David Stern, as he has certainly brought the NBA to new heights.
Holy Harry Sinden, Batman!!! Check out the huge write up in the March 2 Sports Illustrated on “The Elusive Bobby Orr” by S.L. Price. Foreward was written by P.C. Gotham. (jk).
I guess Casey left your conscious mind for all of an hour and a quarter, Wally. He’s a hard habit to break, huh?
😉
It’s difficult because he’s in the subconscious … part of my underworld.
Wally, thanks for the original Rushmore post. I have had a lot of fun on it the past few days. Woke up a part of my brain that often lies dormant nowadays. I just wish you guys were passionate about your opinions (TIC)!
Thanks, Pete. Looks like we all got a lot of mileage out of it. I enjoyed it even though I got run over a few times. Nothing like a good debate, I say 😉
As long as you didn’t get run over by “them thar NASCAR athletes”! The debates were certainly lively, and we may have set an untouchable record for most comments on a topic.