Couldn’t help but notice ESPN’s recently concluded series on this topic hosted by Rick Reilly. I was both intrigued by the overall series and then proud that my home state of Illinois was either selected or voted as having the “best Mt. Rushmore of Sports”. Michael Jordan, Walter Payton, Ernie Banks & Mike Ditka … that’s a pretty good list, but I’m not sure how Ditka made it … think I might’ve gone with George Halas, Red Grange or Bobby Hull before Ditka. Anyway, that’s the subject of a separate debate among us Illini .. or … Illinoisans … or… Noisans… or … Annoyans … what the heck are we???? That’s it … I’m a Chicagoan … case closed! Me and Scarface … we’re practically brudders.
ANYWAY, the real subject of this post is to ask YOU, the readers, to offer up your own personal Mount Rushmore of Sports. There aren’t really any rules … you can base yours on who you think ought to be on EVERYONE’s list … you can base yours purely on who is most meaningful to YOU. It can be international, national, regional … whatever. My only request is that you pick 5 people in sports, not 4, so this is actually a Mt Rushmore-more of Sports. So pick 5 that work for you and share ’em with our readers.
Here’s mine, in no particular order:
- Babe Ruth — the most prolific hitter ever; you could say that “Baseball is The Sport that Ruth Built”. His stats relative to his peers are AMAZING.
- Walter Payton — to me, he epitomized the words “football player” and “class”. I started watching the NFL because of Sweetness.
- Joe Montana — to me, the greatest QB I’ve ever seen. A true winner; one of the greatest pressure/big game players … both at Notre Dame and with the 49ers.
- Michael Jordan — I lived in Chicago during MJ’s entire career with the 6-time champion Bulls. He was one of a kind and raised the bar for future NBA stars.
- Wayne Gretzky — took pro hockey on his back and really made it popular in the States. A great player, a champion, an ambassador of the game.
Feel free to comment on mine, but by all means send us yours!
Wow Wally! Before reading yours I developed a list very similar on my own.
Willie Mays – best that ever played the game;
Wayne Gretzky – best that ever played the game;
Joe Montana – there was a magic there that was surreal;
Michael Jordan – any questions?
Seabiscuit – I knew you’d love that one!
Right after I posted I looked at the side bar and saw none other than Muhammad Ali. If it HAS to be people, I’ll put Ali in place of Seabiscuit.
Well, Pete, we could get into a discussion about whether horse racing is a “sport”, but I fear it would morph into another long tangent about whether offense or defense wins chan’ships 🙂
Great list. I wish I had the chance to see Willie Mays play in his prime … he was way past it by the time I was old enough to notice. Not that I saw the Babe in a prior life or anything … I just thought his accomplishments relative to peers, plus capturing the nation’s imagination, were things that set him apart.
(You and I will be accused of being “ND homers”, but even if I weren’t an alum, Montana would still be on my mountain because he ended the Cowboys reign and helped create a new dynasty at a time when I when I was an absolute sports nut. Nobody was more clutch than Joe Cool.)
I liked this segment too. ESPN does something like this every so often, and usually I hate it. This was pretty cool though.
I think to be on the Rushmore of sports, you have to be transcendent in some way. Based off of that, here’s the five I’d pick:
Michael Jordan – He was a pretty good player. He redefined the shooting guard.
Ruth – Wally nailed it. Compared to others who played in his day, not even close.
Jim Brown – he was a modern day Jim Thorpe for us. Lacrosse is not in our sports lexicon, but he absolutely dominated the game. He flirted with 2,000 in a season long before anyone (I think).
Joe Louis – He still remains one of the most dominant boxers of all time. He showed longevity in a sport that still has none – only argument is Ali. He defended his title more than anyone (I think) and did it mostly with KOs. He carried the sport after greats like Schmeling and Dempsey passed their prime.
Gretzky – I really can’t think of a fifth, but from what I hear Gretzky is close to a no brainer. Hockey is not a sport I can comment on, but he seems to be the standard. What I like most is he played in an era with a couple other greats, yet his name remains the dominant one.
My criteria is “someone I would go out of my way to watch perform”.
Jordan – his desire to win was something to watch.
Ali – If an old fight ison I watch it no matter what
Tiger Woods – Tournaments just aren’t the same without him
Barry Sanders – there are many great football players but I loved watching him play – you never knew what was going to happen on any given play. Also pretty humble – just handed the ball over after a TD.
Lance Armstrong – such an inspiring story. I watched much of the last few Tour de France races that he was in. Looking forward to this year’s race.
I think Ruth was probably the greatest hitter of all time, but Mays was not far behind and brought so many more high-level aspects to his game than did Ruth. Nevertheless, you can argue for either one and not be far off the mark. Rey, great thoughts re:Jim Brown. He did run for 1800+ yards in 1963 (I think), long before 2000+ of Dicjerson in 1984 (?). I once had my picture taken with Brown; it appeared in the local newspaper (Amsterdam (NY) Evening Recorder). It was at the very beginning of his career. I lost the picture, but should look at their microfiche files some day to find it. Joe, Tiger Woods is an awesome addition. I only watch golf because of Tiger. Glad he’s back!
Pete —
I always hear about the “debate” that went on during late 50’s into 60’s about Mantle vs Mays … who was better in their prime??? Clearly, Mays would get your vote … what was it about Mays that pushes him above Mantle in your eyes?
Okay gang. The NHL consisted of six teams from 1924 to 1966. In 1965 a 16 year old from Parry Sound, Ontario appeared on the front cover of McLean’s (the Canadian equivalent of our Time). This kid had signed a contract with the Boston Bruins at the age of 14. News of the ‘Golden Boy’ created such a stir that the NHL was able to consider expanding after FOUR decades. Not only did the league expand – in this kid’s second season the number of teams in the league doubled. Two more joined three seasons later. A 12-team WHA came into existence in the early 70s. The WHA folded and what remained joined the NHL to make 21 teams. Yes – Bobby Orr was the back that the NHL was brokered on.
Take a moment and chew on these numbers. The NHL hadn’t seen a defenseman score 20 goals in over 20 years. Orr did it seven straight years. Five times he scored 30 goals, and he topped it all with a 46 goal season. Orr was not only the first defenseman to notch 100 assists in a season, he is THE ONLY defenseman to accomplish that feat. Orr accumulated over 100 points in six consecutive seasons. No defenseman in the history of the game has more than five total.
Orr is the only person in the history of the game to win the four major awards in ONE season – Art Ross (Scoring champion – yeah a defenseman led the league in scoring), Hart (Regular Season MVP), Norris (Top Defenseman), Conn Smythe (Playoff MVP).
Orr led Boston to its first Cup in 30 years, and the Bruins haven’t tasted the champagne yet. They won two before he was done.
Oh yeah – I almost forgot. Orr is second all-time in plus/minus. #4 had a +/- of 597 in 657 games. Larry Robinson (who played on some absolutely GREAT Canadien teams) needed 1384 games to get a +/- of 730. In case you’re wondering – Gretzky’s +/- is 518. Orr’s 70-71 season is still #1 in +/- at 124.
Has any athlete changed his/her game more than Orr? E.M. Swift wrote: “A defenseman by Orr, became both a defender and an aggressor, both a protector and a producer. Orr was more than an opportunist: He created opportunities.”
A Mount Rushmore of Sports without Bobby Orr is just not much to look up at.
Muhammad Ali – for much of the same reasons stated above.
Willie Mays – My dad told me soooo many stories about the ‘Say Hey’ Kid that I felt like I was born in the 50s.
John McEnroe – his performance in the 84 Wimbledon MIGHT be the single greatest performance in the history of sports.
Mike Krzyzewski – Basketball was around before him and basketball will be around long after he is gone, but thirty years from now (Pete will be in his 80s and still a part of this discussion) we will be talking about how great his contributions were. Right now – There are more players in the NBA from Duke than any other school. A former player is coaching a top ten team (Jeff capel /Oklahoma) and two other former players (Tommy Amaker / Harvard & Johnny Dawkins/Stanford) are getting the job done.
Wait a minute, Casey. There’s no way I’m going to let you get away with going to such great lengths to explain how Bobby Orr belongs on Mount Rushmore because of what he meant to his sport, then choose Willie Mays over Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson.
Casey —
Bobby Orr was on my bubble list, and you made a great case for his support. But then I also thought about the Golden Jet, Bobby Hull, who was also of that era and did much to popularize the game at that time. Then add Gordie Howe to the list. All three of these guys are on the Mt Rushmore of hockey … no question about that. I definitely understand why you picked Orr.
Chas —
This is Casey’s list … there’s no right or wrong … only thing that matters is what works for him. Let’s see your list.
Casey, Orr was on my bubble list as well (amazing and scary how much Wally and I are thinking alike on this one)!
Wally, Mickey Mantle was my hero. He was the reason I even watched baseball and (back then – pre Maris) even rooted for the Yankees. Mick was fast, but Mays was faster, or at least more efficient with his speed. Mick could cover center, but Mays could cover it better. They could both hit for power and average, but Mays was a bit better. But probably the biggest Mays edge was freedom from injury. Mick just wasn’t as durable. It was a hard choice for me to make yesterday. I will say again that Ruth was the best hitter of all time, but not the best player.
Wow – Great conversation! Here is mine:
1. Wayne Gretzky – I had the privelege of watching him play twice. He was mesmerizing and simply the greatest hockey player I ever saw. Like Wally said -he made hockey popular in the United States.
This reminds me of a debate that Casey and I had a few years ago – that carried on for days. Who had more of an impact on their sport – Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.. It was a great conversation..
2. Michael Jordan – Simply put – the best basketball player to grace our presence.
3. Bobby Jones – I know , I know Tiger Woods. But you look everywhere in golf and his fingerprints on the game are there. The only golfer to win the Grand Slam in the same year and his swing was a picture of beauty.
4. Willie Mays – If I was going for the sweetest swing or best hitter it would be Ted Willams. But the overall player has to be Willie Mays.
5. Muhammad Ali – For just about every reason stated above.
Chas
Point well-taken. Thank you for calling me out on that one. There is probably no more significant instance in American Sports of a player changing a game than Jackie Robinson.
JD spoke well of Jackie Robinson here: https://pickinsplinters.com/?p=109
In fact JD’s comments on that topic pre-dated our campaign of helmet stickers. I am giving a much overdue Helmet Sticker to JD!!!!
By the way – JD – great to have you ‘Ridin’ the Pine’ my Eye-Italian brother from another mother. It is great having you add some levity to the Bench now that your coaching responsibilities are done for the season. I am still jealous of your literary allusion.
As for Orr – his impact was on the entire playing surface. Yes Hull, Howe, and Gretzky were great offensive players, but none could match Orr’s artistry. Hull had an incredible slap shot, but (I only have limited access to old Hull videos) he needed someone to create that opportunity. Orr could line up behind his goaltender and weave his way up the ice with the puck dangling to his stick. The only comparison to that level on a playing surface is MJ.
Jackie Robinson’s impact – for me- was off the field. Should that put him on my Mt.? Probably – but he did not come to mind for me. Maybe that is my fault. As for Ruth – again he is not in my consciousness as much as Mays – dad could be a great story-teller when it came to Willie.
Of course I would love to continue debating this with you Chas. While some on the Pine might “fear it would morph into another long tangent,” I kinda thought that was the intended purpose: debate and understanding. Certainly it would increase the views on the site which could attract a wider audience which would mean more and more. I enjoy the prospect of being challenged which forces me to think about what I am saying and either developing a response or admitting that I am wrong.
In fact I would love to see a discussion about whether horse racing is a sport.
Part of me wants to McEnroe off my Mt.. Of course he would think that unfair and I could put him off to the side with his snarling puss. 🙂
Casey —
Hull was called the Golden Jet because he could REALLY skate, plus he had the cannon slapshot.
Mays worshippers–
Just playing Devil’s Advocate here … but If Mays was sooooo great, plus he played with several HoFers, then WHY didn’t his NY-SF Giants win more pennants and rings????? Riddle me me that, Batman.
Smitty — Great call on Bobby Jones!
Two concrete answers why the Giants didn’t win more rings/pennants: 1. Mays lost a whole season and the better part of another to military service. The next year he came back the Giants beat the Indians. 2. The Dodgers had more HOFers – Koufax, Dryesdale, Reese, Robinson, Campanella, and Snider. Not to mention Podres, Maglie, Newcombe – Who did I forget?
Just checking here – Bobby Orr could ‘REALLY skate’ too? Right?
Yes … I didn’t say he couldn’t … but I’m just pointing out that Orr wasn’t the only one who was a great skater and you made Hull sound like he was a statue waiting for a pass at the blue line. You’re starting to make Orr sound like he was on skates and everyone else was in slow motion wearing sneakers. Not true.
Ya know … if you keep defending Orr like this … we’re all gonna start feeling like he’s the “Hedo Turkoglu” of hockey. (Back me up on this, Smitty).
So Mays lost a year and a half out of a 20 year career … what about the other 18 years??? And did he not play with McCovey, Marichal, and Irvin … not to mention the legendary Alou brothers? Got any numbers on how the Say Hey Kid did in the post-season?
This is a good topic, Wally. If my comment wasn’t in the spirit of it, I apologize. That is, to question Casey’s pick without offering my own.
Speaking of which, I could come up with my own, and it would be very similar to Rey’s, except I’d probably take Ali over Louis. But, to be honest, I couldn’t care less about hockey and boxing (and even less about golf and horse racing), and I really don’t know who the football guy should be (Jim Brown is probably as good as it gets), and is there anybody who didn’t pick Michael Jordan? Casey, I guess, but he was obviously trying to be different by picking McEnroe and Coach K.
So, how about if I do a post on my baseball Mount Rushmore, since it’s been a couple weeks since I’ve posted anyway. I’ll wait until this discussion dies down, so as not to steal Wally’s thunder. Then, maybe Casey can assign, or otherwise determine who does the same for the other major sports. Maybe he does basketball, Wally football, Smitty hockey…or something like that. Hell, Rey could do soccer and the kids could do the college sports if we want to go overboard with this. We could get a lot of mileage out of this discussion.
What do you guys think?
Okay, I am going to play the role of Switzerland on this one and stay out of this one. Wally if you ask anyone in Boston – the greatest thing to hockey is and was Bobby Orr. I have a problem with Gretzky not being able to master the artistry of Bobby Orr. Gretzky’s vision of the ice was second to none and was a great skater in his own right.
He found guys open that very few – if any – could find open. That is why guys ike Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson are in the hockey hall of fame.
Okay, maybe I didn’t play the role of Switzerland..
Interesting thought – if Ted Williams hadn’t lost 5 years of playing to multiple wars – would we have been talking about Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds having to pass Ted Williams as the all-time HR leader?
Chas – I am all for it..
Smitty – my grandfather (a NY Giants fan) used to make the same argument about Willie Mays. Let’s take a look.
Mays hit 660 HR is his career. He lost most of 1952-53 to the war. Based on his HR/AB in 1951 and 1954, I project he would have hit 33 per year in 520 AB. So, if we add 66 to 660 and then subtract the 4 that he actually hit, it comes to 722. So, Mays may very well have broken Ruth’s record in 1973, and then lost the crown to Aaron in 1974, but that’s about it.
Williams hit 521 HR. He lost all of 1943-45 to WWII. Since he hit 36 and 38 in 1942 and 1946, respectively (in 522 and 514 AB), I simply credited him with 37 per year (111 total). For 1952-53, by the same methodology, he was also hitting HR at a rate of 37 per 520 AB. So, 37 times 2 minus the 14 he actually hit is another 60. Add 111 and 60 to 521 and we get 692. So, probably not.
Now, the real discussion is how many HR would Babe Ruth have hit if he hadn’t spent 1914-1918 as a pitcher? Harder to tell, because it was the beginning of the live-ball era, but I assure you that as a snot-nose little Yankee fan, that was my response to grandpa’s Willie Mays argument. 🙂
So many good thoughts. Good discussion. I found it hard to exclude Jim Thorpe from my Rushmore. In my mind he was the greatest athlete ever. He even won ballroom dancing contests. There was nothing physical that man could not do well. I am beginning to realize that my criteria has to do with impact, and more specifically impact on USA. That’s why I would not add Pele to my list. His impact was international, but in the USA it was nil (almost)
As to horse racing, it is certainly a sport. It is one of the earliest sports. It is the sport of kings. Now, are racehorses athletes? That’s the debatable point. Read Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand (I rate it as one of the 5 best books I have ever read – not alone on that; it spent a long time at the top of the NY Times bestseller list) and see for yourself if Seabiscuit doesn’t fit our usual definitions of athletes in every respect; physical prowess, competitiveness, and mental toughness. BUT, horse racing is a sport, regardless of whether the horse is an athlete or not.
Horse racing is NOT a “sport”. It’s a race between horses, not humans. Is it a game? Yes. A contest? Yes. A pastime? Yes. Are the horses amazing creatures? Yes. BUT …. Per Wally’s definition of “sport”, it falls short.
IMO, Ted Williams is the best pure hitter in baseball history. For average, OBP, and power, I really don’t think anyone else comes close …. except maybe Balco Bonds and he’s got a zillion asterisks by his name. Yes, the two wars really hurt Ted’s totals. Anyway, Ruth is still my baseball Rushmore rep … because of the “Ruthian” numbers and also because of the significant intangibles. He really made baseball the “National Pastime”.
Main Entry: sport
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 a: a source of diversion : recreation b: sexual play c (1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2): a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in
2 a: pleasantry , jest b: often mean-spirited jesting : mockery , derision
3 a: something tossed or driven about in or as if in play b: laughingstock
4 a: sportsman b: a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanship c: a companionable person
5: an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue
So, since it’s definition #1 we’re pretty much talking about here, horse racing IS a sport. However, according to #4, a horse is not a sportsman because it’s not a person. That segue-ways to the next definition…
Main Entry: ath·lete
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlētēs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
Date: 15th century
: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
I agree with Merriam-Webster that horse racing is a sport, but a horse is not an athlete by virtue of not being a person. But, then again, Merriam-Webster is only one opinion, just like mine or Wally’s or Pete’s. 😉
Are jockeys athletes? 🙂
Wally, if we want to abide by “your” definition of sport, then we certainly can abide by “my” definition of athlete. Fact is, “our” definitions don’t count for much. Dictionary definitions would designate racing as a sport and horses as not athletes. So it just comes down to opinion (on the bench anyway). Seabiscuit still has my vote. And I fully realize that it is an unsupported stand. Still a great book though.
Chas — Thanks for all the research. Per Wally’s Post-Collegiate Dictionary, “jockeys” are “very small people who sit on race horses and beat them with a whip stick; not athletes.”
Pete — I’m willing to work with you on this in the “spirit of the post” cuz I’m starting to laugh too much 🙂
I’m surprised Hedo Turkoglu did not at least make Casey’s Rushmore Bubble List for his basketball rep. Smitty … you too?
Wally
You’re starting to sound desperate. The whole Turkoglu reference is a last gasp diversionary tactic that is losing emphasis. For the love of God stop using it in this thread. It was remotely funny, but the humor is diminishing into pity at this point.
Wait!
This thread has officially fallen into the category of one that would “morph into another long tangent.”
Ah yes – “The Pine” shuddered when Wally and Pete agreed. Last time that happened Wally declared himself right…..in his own mind. 🙂
Did I say that out loud?
Oh yeah – hey Smitty!!!! Let’s try your “vision on the ice” theory if Gretzky had to advance the puck 200 feet.
Release the hounds!!!!!
Wally get it right this time. Release this hounds in the context of this thread means I know I am in disagreement with others, so I expect people to come after me. Thus the hounds are coming after me in a hunt. Do ya get it?
Well, it’s been fun and this post has certainly gotten us firmly into the weekend. I’d still like to see more posts from the readers who haven’t replied on who is on their “Mount Rushmore of Sports” and/or we could shift gears as was suggested and go sport by sport. Casey, how would you like to proceed?
And I vow not to use the Hedo Turkoglu reference …. for at least a month 🙂
Where to go from here?
Gee – I’d like to hear from Chas. Any white elephants here for you Chas. After all he was trimmed for questioning my Willie nomination with a “This is Casey’s list … there’s no right or wrong … only thing that matters is what works for him.” This after Chas published an all-time list that was entitled with the word ‘MY.’ I’m thinking that means in his opinion – something that is rather subjective, yet he was taken to task on his picks…particularly about 2nd base. 🙂
Hey, for me it’s BIG that Wally is willing to work with me on this one. Considering the amazing similarities in our original Rushmore (Seabiscuit notwithstanding) and even our bubble list, it seemed only natural that we could work a truce on this one. One thing I do know for sure; my opinion is often “out there” and unsupported by anything but my gut feelings. So it is when it comes to Seabiscuit! BTW, is hunting a sport; it’s done by sportsmen?
Casey, what do you think of this idea?
https://pickinsplinters.com/?p=2307&cpage=1#comment-3934
I like it. Go with it.
Will Ryne Sandberg be on yours? 🙂 That was just too friggin’ easy.
I almost used that one earlier. If I did a Mount Rushmore of second basemen from the second half of the 20th century: Yes…probably. 🙂
HELMET STICKER!!!!!!!!
Wait I was laughing so hard it took me 60 seconds to press the ‘enter’ key.
Pete has a question on the table. Gentlemen is there a response?
You guys are hilarious. Please stop and start something “serious”.
Anyway … hunting? Not a sport! I think it’s a hobby done by guys who like guns. Or guys that like to eat. Or both. That’s my vote.
I just thought that being done by “sportsmen” would qualify it. Hard to tell; some definitions are so ambiguous. But no, seriously, isn’t it a sport? Wouldn’t a sport be defined in it’s simplest form as “something done by a sportsman”? Point is, definitions are personalized, even in Webster’s. Hence we DO have a serious discussion; setting the ground rules for opinionated discussions. Wally, I completely accept your vote on hunting. I just think your vote disagrees with the “definition”. Well, I’m off to NASCAR.com. Got to see who qualified in a REAL sport, a MAN’S sport. TIC (tongue-in-cheek), though I do follow NASCAR. Aren’t those cars athletes, or is it the driver?
Now, Pete, I will agree that race car drivers are at least “more athletic” than horse jockeys. I’m not a racing fan, cuz I think the car and the mechanics do the real work and it often really boils down to who is lucky enough to avoid a crash.
Plus, going around in circles bores me to tears.
Out of curiosity – Wally? How much hunting have you done? Isn’t marksmanship part of at least one Olympic event? Since you have characterized hunting by saying it’s “for guys that like to eat” – how do you describe a high percentage of golfers in the U.S.?
“…NASCAR. Aren’t those cars athletes, or is it the driver?”
That’s my vote for comment of the week.
I think hunting is a sport, auto racing is a sport, bowling is a sport, etc. They’re just not sports that require a great deal of athleticism. Archery is an olympic sport, right? And, there’s some other olympic sport that involves shooting a rifle, right?
Speaking of which, were there any amateur athletes mentioned? What about Eric Heiden, Mark Spitz, Jim Craig, Michael Phelps, Jesse Owens? Just throwin’ it out there.
BTW Wally, my Ryne Sandberg comment was serious. It was intended to be funny, of course, but it was a serious statement. Being one of the top 5 second baseman of half a century is not an insult. It’s not like I said if I did a Mount Rushmore of Mets third basemen, Wayne Garrett would sneak in.
Ooohhh – Jesse Owens- wow. There are a few more greats that I haven’t mentioned, but I know a couple of folks who will hopefully come on and comment.
Oh yeah – Wally – the legendary Alou brothers? They combined for about 300 home runs, a .290 BA, and 0 Gold Gloves. But hey Matty Alou led the league one year by making 503 outs.
Chas – don’t worry I didn’t overlook your Casey’s-trying-to-be-different-by-putting McEnroe-and-Coach-K-on-his-Mt. comment. I just haven’t worked up a response yet. 🙂
Interesting that my wife’s Mt. Rushmore included both Owens and Phelps. whereas neither occurred to me. Maybe we should have a Rushmore for pros and one for amateurs. My amateur Rushmore: Owens, Grange (at Illinois), Thorpe (at Carlisle), Lew Alcindor (at UCLA), and Sugar Ray Leonard (in the Olympics).