This is the second in a two-part series in which I’m naming my all-lifetime team, that is the greatest players who’ve played a minimum of ten seasons between 1974 and the present.
I thought that right field was a loaded position, but the tough decisions there paled in comparison to those I had to make determining what pitchers would make my all-lifetime team. Starting pitchers were particularly difficult, as I could have made a top ten list and still left Hall of Famers off of it. Or, I could have chosen three right-handers and three left-handers, but instead I opted to just go with six starters in total.
Starting Pitcher
1. Roger Clemens
2. Greg Maddux
3. Tom Seaver
4. Randy Johnson
5. Pedro Martinez
6. Steve Carlton
As I said before, on-field performance is strictly what these selections are based on, and it’s hard to argue that Clemens–with his seven Cy Young awards–is not the best starting pitcher of his generation. Maddux’s career included an incredible run of seven consecutive seasons with an ERA+ of 160 (60% better than average) or higher. Seaver only accomplished that twice, but he did finish in the top five in Cy Young voting eight times. Johnson and Martinez have arguably been more dominant at their peaks than anyone here, but their injury plagued careers keep them out of the top three. Carlton beats out Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro, Jim Palmer, Fergie Jenkins, Don Sutton, Nolan Ryan, Bert Blyleven, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina and John Smoltz for the final spot.
Relief Pitcher (pre-1988)
1. Bruce Sutter
2. Rich Gossage
3. Dan Quisenberry
Relief Pitcher (post-1988)
1. Mariano Rivera
2. Trevor Hoffman
3. Dennis Eckersley
Rivera is an easy #1, but after that I can understand why Hall of Fame voters seem to be having such a tough time figuring out how to deal with relief pitchers. I honestly didn’t expect this to be such a difficult decision, so I decided to divide them into two categories: pre-1988 and post-1988. That year, of course, was Eckersley’s first season as a full-time closer, which is generally considered to be the beginning of the one-inning save trend.
Like I said, Rivera would be #1 on the list even if I hadn’t split the group in half. I used to think that some could make an argument for Eckersley as the best of the post-1988 bunch. But, then I took a closer look and realized that, as great as he was in his prime, that prime was very short-lived. He makes the list, but I chose Hoffman’s consistency over Eck’s dominant prime. Surprisingly overlooked in discussions of the best active closers is Billy Wagner, whose career ERA+ of 180 is second only to Rivera. Lastly, Lee Smith probably doesn’t quite get the respect he deserves, but in my opinion, he’s still not a Hall of Famer.
The most unsung closer of the pre-1988 era is Quisenberry, and I really believe he deserved much more Hall of Fame consideration than the 3.8% of the vote he received in his first, and only, year on the ballot. His career percentage of save opportunities converted (81.6) is better than Sutter (74.8), Gossage (73.5) and Rollie Fingers (75.8); and his ERA+ (146) outshines that Hall of Fame trio as well: Sutter (136), Gossage (126), Fingers (119). All four of them averaged over an inning and a half per relief appearance, so they’re on a pretty level playing field when it comes to comparing their saves percentages. Incidentally, the post-1988 crew have much better success rates, but they all average about a half inning less per outing. I intend no disrespect to Fingers by bumping him from the list in favor of Quisenberry, because it could have been any of them. If he was a little closer to 300 career saves, I’d have no reservations ranking Quiz #1.
Chas – Hard to argue with anyone on the list. No Ron Guidry on here?
Personally, I think Dennis Eckersley and John Smoltz should get extra consideration because of the changes they were both able to make during their careers and still remain a dominant pitcher.
And no this isn’t because Smoltz is a new member of the Red Sox. But I have a lot of respect for a guy who can be a dominant starter, switch roles to a closer, remain dominant and then switch back to an effective starter again. Not saying he should be in anyone’s Top 6, but he certainly gets more consideration in mine.
As for Roger Clemens – I have such mixed feelings about him and it bothers me that I do. He probably would have been in my Top 6 before the problems, but because of it – I have to drop him down a peg or two..
Personally, I drop him below Greg Maddux. Maddux made pitching into an absolute art,. If Maddux was pitching, I made it a point to be in front of the TV for the game. Whether it was WGN or TBS – I was there. If there was an artist that he was equivalent to, I would say Claude Monet. They both made it look easy..
As for Rollie Fingers – Doesn’t he get more consideration for the fact that his career really began before the closer role was being redefined? Fingers began his career in the late 60’s – Quisenberry didn’t really start until 1979.. Don’t get me wrong – I HATED when Dan Quisenberry came into a game. How could anyone hit something that look like it was shooting up out of the ground? But Fingers’ career was twice as long. So more chances and the more likelihood that his career save percentange is going to be lower. Not knocking either of them, just kinda throwing some support for Rollie Fingers.
Chas — another great presentation. For the most part, understand your reasoning. Here’s a few Q’s I have:
Steve Carlton seems a few positions too low on the list … maybe he should be #3 or #4? Why do you have him behind Martinez and Big Unit? I remember him as the most dominant lefty … a gritty competitor and winner. Unhittable slider.
No Lee Smith?
Why so fond of Trevor Hoffman?
And why isn’t Ryno higher??? J.K. 🙂
As Smitty noted it’s tough to rate Rollie by the numbers. He probably would have benefited from the current manner in which bullpens are used. I was always impressed by the way he played a prominent role in the Series with two different teams.
Again agreeing with Smitty on Guidry. Louisiana Lightning was great.
Yeah I’m thinking Carlton was better than Pedro and Johnson – my opinion.
Too bad we don’t have any 40-something females on the pine – you might get quite a case built for Palmer.
Any Yankee fans wanna see Torrez on this list? I mean could anybody serve up a better gopher ball than the one to Dent?
Tug McGraw – just ’cause I wanted to put his name on here somewhere.
Look, I’m probably one of Ron Guidry’s biggest fans…I wrote a poem in 6th grade called “Ode to Ron Guidry”. The last line was “Ode to Ron Guidry, who better beat the Dodgers”. That was the day of Game 3 of the ’78 World Series. The Yankees were down 2-0, and ended up winning four straight games after that. Graig Nettles actually won that game with his defensive performance, because Gator didn’t have his best stuff. I also had a home-made t-shirt that said Louisiana Lightning on the front, with #49 on the back.
All that said, look at the list of guys I ranked ahead of him. Pretty tough list, huh? Who would you rank Guidry ahead of? I guess the only possible answers are Blyleven and Mussina, the only guys who might not make the Hall of Fame…not including Clemens, of course, but that’s a different story. I’m assuming Smoltz makes it, which is a nice segue-way to the next topic.
Smoltz and Eckersley do get credit for switching roles. I think that’s what allows Smoltz to make the Hall of Fame without obvious numbers. Or better put, neither his numbers as a starter or closer are obvious, but together they are…to me, at least.
Eck’s career made for an interesting dilemma when I was clearly picking guys based on roles (starter or reliever). But, Eckersley’s career as a starter would put him nowhere near this list, so I just had to try not to hold that against him.
Lee Smith’s my #5 in the post-1988 category. I just don’t think he’s as good as the other guys. Hoffman’s career saves percentage is better than Rivera’s, and Rivera’s is better than everybody else, except John Smoltz and Eric Gagne…believe it or not. Obviously, Hoffman and Rivera have a greater body of work. I just think it’s awesome that Hoffman is the all-time saves leader and also the all-time saves percentage leader of guys with 200 or more.
Pedro’s prime was better than anybody I’ve ever seen, and Randy Johnson’s was pretty damn close. I just chose to emphasize that over Carlton’s better longevity.
I also just think Quiz is way under-rated and wanted to put him on the list. Fingers just happens to be the guy I consider the worst of the other three.
But Rollie needs to get extra credit for the mustache. He made that mustache famous!!
I remember going to see Toronto and Milwaukee play back in the old Toronto outdoor stadium. I was about 7 or 8, so it was late 70’s, and the Brew Crew were loaded. The whole ride up, I was excited because Rollie Fingers was going to be there. An when he pitched that day? Well suddenly I forgot that it was 35 degrees out.
I should mention that the extra credit for the mustache is all tongue in cheek..
Chas,
C’mon! How did Graig Nettles win a game with defense? Defense doesn’t score runs.
🙂
You’re right Casey. Nettles saved that game with his defense.
Oh, and here’s my revised/extended list of second basemen. The discussion on here influenced me to reconsider a little…but not with respect to Ryne Sandberg.
1. Joe Morgan
2. Roberto Alomar
3. Craig Biggio
4. Ryne Sandberg
5. Lou Whitaker
6. Bobby Grich
7. Jeff Kent
8. Willie Randolph
9. Chuck Knoblauch
10. Chase Utley
Did you catch the Verducci article in SI about Kent. It was titled – ‘Second to None.”
That’s fine. Ryno is #1 on MY list of post 1970 two baggers. If Morgan weren’t such an ego-maniac, he MIGHT BE #1 on MY list. (It’s liberating to have your own list … it can’t be wrong!!)
Where does Felix Millan fall on this list?
Right below Dick Green and Denis Menke.
Felix Millan didn’t qualify. Otherwise, he would have made my decisions that much more difficult. [I was going to say he would have slotted in in front of Ryno, but I don’t want Wally to think I’m really trying to get under his skin 😉 ]
Millan won two Gold Gloves, you know? Did you know that Manny Trillo won two Silver Sluggers? I know that one’s going to feed into Wally’s argument that the position was all about defense, therefore a .280 hitter with no power was the best offensively at the position. 🙂
I’m off to Cooperstown for the weekend at a B&B. It was her idea.
I know that longevity has to be a factor, but one of the best I ever saw was JR Richard. Check his short career.
Wow!! Pete – great call!!!
Add Mark Fidrych to the list of comets that flashed across the MLB sky.
The Bird was indeed a bright comet. Richard in 1980 (I think) posted Bob Gibson-1968-like stats. Dwight Gooden also was a short-lived phenom whose stats matched the great Sandy Koufax for awhile.