by Patrick ‘Rey’ Reynell
View Part 1 of this discussion.
If you missed the introduction, we’re attempting to expand the NBA’s 50 Greatest Players to accommodate its 65th anniversary as a league in two seasons.
After Part 1, we have several worthy players. Here are the number of votes per player so far:
Tim Duncan – 4
Bob McAdoo – 4
Kobe Bryant – 4
Allen Iverson – 2
Adrian Dantley – 2
Maurice Stokes – 2
Chet Walker – 2
LeBron James – 2
Dan Issel -1
Bernard King – 1
Dennis Rodman – 1
Those names and their respective number of votes will remain intact. However, you can only vote for a player once. The 15 additions will be revealed after voting is finished.
Just as we did in Part 1, choose your next five players to be added to the list. Remember: You can no longer vote for the five players you selected in Part 1; their fate rests in the hands of others who may not have voted for them yet.
Here are my next five additions:
Tom Heinsohn – Hall of Famer. 8X NBA champion with Bill Russell’s Celtics. All-NBA second team for four straight seasons (1960-1964). Career averages of 18.6 ppg and 8.8 rpg in nine seasons.
Maurice Stokes – Hall of Famer. Career averages: 16.4 ppg, 17.3 rpg, 5.3 apg (as a F/C, mind you). Played in only three NBA seasons (two with the Rochester Royals), yet his total rebounds would actually be better than six other players on the 50 greatest list. Scored over 1,000 points in each of his seasons (202 career games, only eclipsed 70 games in a season once when he played in all 72). Led the league in rebounds per game in 1955-1956 as a rookie and won rookie of the year. Finished fifth in MVP voting twice. Finished third in assists the following two seasons. Made all-star team and second team all-NBA each season he played. (Thanks to Crossword Pete for bringing Stokes into the discussion!)
Kevin Garnett – 2004 MVP. Finished in top 5 in MVP voting six times, finishing as the runner-up twice (to Shaquille O’Neal in 2000 and Tim Duncan in 2003). NBA champion with the Celtics in 2008. 19.8 career ppg and 10.8 rpg. Great passer for a post player at 6’11” with 4.2 apg in career. His 4,719 career assists would make him seventeenth on the 50 greatest list. Nearly a career 50% shooter, which is remarkable when taking into account that he takes a lot of mid-range shots and likes to face up to the basket.
Dominique Wilkins – Hall of Famer. Over 26,500 career points. Put up a lot of shots but was a relentless scoring threat. Averaged over 30 ppg twice (one scoring title) and 29 ppg three times with a career average of 24.8 (could be higher if he hadn’t returned to the league at 37 and 39). Chosen for nine consecutive all-star game appearances. Played during an era of Eastern Conference dynasties (Celtics, Pistons, Bulls) on an average team. Eliminated every year by either the Bulls, Celtics or Pistons except for Bucks in 1983-1984 and 1988-1989.
Dennis Johnson – Hall of Famer. 3X NBA champion (twice with Boston and once with Seattle). Won Finals MVP in 1978-1979 season with the Sonics. All-NBA first team in 1980-1981, second team in 1979-1980. 6X first team All-Defensive, 3X second team All-Defensive. Perhaps one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time.
So there are my next five. You can agree, refute, or (in the spirit of Mt. Otsego) just add your ’splinters.’
Rey — here are my votes for the next 5 in:
1) Artis Gilmore — All time leader in FG%, 17 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 bpg. These stats do not include his great years with the ABA Kentucky Colonels.
2) Dennis Johnson (G) — see main post above
3) Bill Laimbeer (F/C) — Two-time champion with the Detroit Pistons, 13 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 2 apg
4) Steve Nash (PG) — 2 time MVP, 14.6 ppg, 8.3 apg
5) Dirk Nowitzki — MVP winner; 23 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 2.7 apg. Might be the modern day Dominique Wilkins, but IMO a better all-around player.
Got ’em. Thanks, Wally.
Here’s a question: Do the back-to-back MVPs thrust Nash into this conversation? Would he still be in minus 1 or both of those awards?
Rey —
Nash is probably out of this particular discussion if he hadn’t won any MVP awards … but would still be in with just one. MVPs are just one factor, but winning 2 says a lot to me. Isn’t he climbing up the all-time career assist list ??? Answered my own question … he’s number 8 all-time and climbing … should pass Isiah Thomas before he’s done.
Rank Player AST
1. John Stockton* 15806
2. Jason Kidd 10923
3. Mark Jackson 10334
4. Magic Johnson* 10141
5. Oscar Robertson* 9887
6. Isiah Thomas* 9061
7. Gary Payton 8966
8. Steve Nash 8397
9. Rod Strickland 7987
10. Maurice Cheeks 7392
11. Lenny Wilkens* 7211
12. Terry Porter 7160
13. Tim Hardaway 7095
14. Bob Cousy* 6955
15. Guy Rodgers 6917
I don’t know why I didn’t expect to see Nash that high for assists. Guess because he took off when he got in Phoenix. He’s worthy even though Kobe deserved the MVP when he averaged 35 a game (think it was Nash’s second MVP).
Yep … we can always debate who shoulda won it, but Nash has 2 … that’s the facts. And now you have to ask how many guys have won 2 or more MVPs. Here’s the list of 11 … pretty exclusive:
• Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
• Bill Russell
• Michael Jordan
• Wilt Chamberlain
• Larry Bird
• Magic Johnson
• Moses Malone
• Tim Duncan
• Karl Malone
• Steve Nash
• Bob Pettit
I think the biggest joke on here is Karl Malone … I don’t think he shoulda won any. I think Stockton shoulda got one.
You forgot LeBron James. The only players to ever win back-to-back MVPs from that list:
Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar, Moses Malone, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Nash, LeBron.
Who?
The Miami Heat’s second best player
Chet Walker – always one of my personal favorites
Kobe Bryant – I have to admit he is at least worthy of second 5
Tim Duncan – he has done so much so quietly (in my opinion)
Artis Gilmore – those stats thrown out in part 1 clinched him a spot
Cliff Hagan – the first small forward. Until Hagan, there was no room in NBA for a 6’4″ player. He changed that, teaming with Bob Pettit to lead the Hawks to the only break in the Celtics great run of championships. Hagan was more of a favorite than was Walker, and the reason I was a St. Louis (the city) fan of sorts (who really jumped on the wagon in 1964 with the Cards of Gibson, McCarver, Ken Boyer et al). Only the football Cards (archrivals of my then-beloved Giants) could not win my heart.
Thanks, Pete.
Getting back to Nash real quick – I kind of feel about him as I do Rodman. There is such a glaring weakness to their game, although Casey brought up a good point about Rodman playing within his strengths. You do that with offense when surrounded by Isaiah, Michael and Pippen. But Nash is a horrible defender. Not only a ball defender, but he gets so lost when playing off-the-ball. I don’t know if he is top 65 for me, but I may be the only one who feels that way. Hard to argue against a guy that won multiple MVPs.
Good pick-up, Rey. 🙂 And I think it would be irresponsible for us to have Lebron included somewhere in the next best 15 and not have D-Wade in there as well. Expect me to nominate him very soon, if somebody doesn’t beat me to it. Quite an impressive resume for only 6 seasons.
When it comes to Nash, in addition to the MVPs and obvious great offensive/passing contributions, when I watch him play, there’s a bit of being mesmerized by his ball skills … there’s a bit of Pete Maravich in his play and that’s another reason to have him in there, IMO. He’s got the “Wow” factor, ala Dr J and Pistol Pete. I agree his defense is subpar, but nonetheless …
Pete —
There’s certainly no arguing with your list … and you have done another incredible job of bringing us back a decade or so with the Cliff Hagan mention. Top work and obviously a helmet sticker!!! (Can I do that, Casey?)
I am getting to my picks.
To answer Wally’s question – I guess I have been at fault for this – anybody can give anybody a helmet sticker. I am not the only one with this distinction. So yes, Wally can give a helmet sticker!!!!!!!
I guess I’m torn on the DWade LeBron issue. They entered the league in the same year. LeBron, statistically, appears better than Wade in every category. Does the fact that Wade has a Finals MVP make him equal to James’ overall resume? Not saying that Wade’s resume is not impressive. And James is doing what he’s doing at 3 years younger, if that evev matters. I’d vote for Wade, don’t get me wrong. I don’t know how equal he is to James at this point.
Wade is a champion (James is not) … and given his relative lack of height (is he only 6’3″?), he’s one of the most physically talented players I’ve ever seen. And all I’m saying is that Wade is currently in the discussion about TODAY’S best players in the league … along with Kobe and Lebron. You can make a good argument for any of the 3. And hey … Lebron went over to D-Wade’s team … it wasn’t the other way around.
Hey – Adam Morrison is a champion, too!
And Iverson is only 6’0″ 🙂
How tall is Steve Nash? And guys like playing along side of him.
Oh wait…isn’t Scalabrine a champion?
My second five:
Chet Walker
Artis Gilmore
Alex English
Dennis Johnson
Ray Allen
Got ’em. Thanks, Casey. And Steve Nash is 6’3″ though that seems generous, doesn’t it?